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INTERNET GOVERNANCE FORUM 2016 ENABLING INCLUSIVE AND SUSTAINABLE GROWTH
JALISCO, MEXICO

6 DECEMBER 2016 WORKSHOP 20 ALIGNING MULTISTAKEHOLDER NORMS AND THE DIGITAL
TRADE AGENDA 9:00 A.M.

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INTERNET GOVERNANCE FORUM 2016 ENABLING INCLUSIVE AND SUSTAINABLE GROWTH
JALISCO, MEXICO

6 DECEMBER 2016 WORKSHOP 20 ALIGNING MULTISTAKEHOLDER NORMS AND THE DIGITAL
TRADE AGENDA 9:00 A.M.

(speaking non English language)

(speaking non English language)

>> Welcome to this workshop on aligning multistakeholder norms and the
digital trade agenda.  I'm glad you've been able to make it here to this
very small and inaccessible room, but we do also have some remote
participants, which is wonderful.  And also, we'll be summarizing this
session for the main session on trade at the IGF, which we're very excited
about being on Thursday.  So, I'm going to give a brief introduction while
we wait for some other people to arrive, then I'm going to introduce our
panelists and we're going to have pretty much a round table discussion
after some very short opening remarks by the panelists, and we hope to make
this a really interactive session so we're looking forward to your input.
My remarks are going to be framing the topics and I'm going to be
explaining why we see some problems in the way that internet issues are
dealt with in trade agreements.  And then suggest how we might want to
address that.  How could we reduce this strange discord between the way
that we think of dealing with Internet Governance and the way that trade
deals with those same issues. So, I don't think we can deny that internet-
related issues are going to be part of the global trading system here and
in the future.  It's a fact that global trade in goods and services does
create wealth and opportunity and the free open internet is a form of
global trade and information services.  Therefore, we might assume that
trade agreements should be used to promote a free and open internet.
However, there's a problem with this, and I'll explain what that problem
is.  At the global level first.  There's a problem in dealing with digital
issues on a completely multiple rei lateral basis because multilateral
negotiations have really broken down.  The WTO operates on the basis of the
equality of states and a single undertaking that binds all of the states
together and this has become increasingly difficult to achieve, and this
affects digital issues just as it does all other issues.  Developing
countries, in particular, are not really open to adopting new rules when
concerns about agricultural and more basic issues haven't been addressed at
the WTO. So this has led to a position in which the developing countries
which want to did deal with digital issues are pushing those issues outside
of the WTO to be dealt with in plural lateral or many lateral agreements
which are smaller agreements that other countries could be pushed into
joining later.  So, this is not really the way that the multilateral trade
negotiations were meant to operate.  As a result, rather than trade
agreements being a fully joint n taking, it's become more of a game in
which the party with the largest market can extract promises from the
weaker parties.  We've also seen these being used for geo political
positioning, particularly to contain China, which is seen as a threat to
the United States. It's notable that China is being kept out of agreements
like TTP and TICA until these agreements have been set in stone, and they
can be used as a tool to contain China's threat to the rest of the -- the
United States and its allies.  The other problem is that trade agreements
have a lack of transparency and participation.  The negotiations in texts
are withheld from the public.  The WTO is actually more transparent than
the trade agreements that have come in its way.  But even then, the WTO
transparency mechanism for regional trade agreements doesn't require that
the text be made public.  It only requires that the agreements be notified
to the other parties. So, those are some of the problems at the global
level.  At the domestic level, let's look at the United States as an
example.  The United States has a set of trade advisory committees which
advise the U.S. trade representative, and so, in addition to these formal
committees, there is also a lot of informal lobbying that goes on.  If we
look at the composition of these committees, there's 16 industry trade
advisery committees and seven non industry advisory committees.  700 in
all.  The majority of those come from industry.  ITEC8, there are no Civil
Society or public interest representatives.  So, this results in a fairly
partial position that does not reflect a broad cross-section of stakeholder
views.  The trade negotiations themselves are also not.  We don't have a
lot of expertise in the technological human rights issues they're
discussing.  If we also look at the number of staff negotiating these
issues who are devoted to intellectual property, there are a lot more of
those than others related to other e-commerce issues so it's totally
unbalanced within the US, at least. It's also difficult for the trade
negotiators to make the case that they should be considering non-trade
issues like human rights issues because it's considered to be out of scope
with them.  And there's also a problem with the revolving door between
lobbyists and the members of the trade advisory committee.  And again, a
lack of transparency at the domestic level just as there is at the
international level.  The trade negotiations as a whole are lacking
transparency but so, too, the consultations at the domestic level.  The
trade advisers have to have a security clearance, keep the text secret.  We
had asked the United States government to adopt new commitments to
transparency as part of its commitments in the open government partnership
national action plan.  That was a failed opportunity.  The the USTR failed
to increase its transparency in any meaningful way. The Europeans are
actually doing somewhat better to increase their transparency.  The
European commission has adopted a policy of disclosing all of its text
proposals to the public and disclosing the consolidated text of its trade
agreements to all of the members of the European p Parliament but the US
government has not followed those steps.  There are two new measures before
the U.S. Congress which would use to transforms but it's difficult to say,
particularly in the new environment in the US, whether those stand any
chance of success. So, these are just some opening remarks to frame the
problems we face.  The lack of transparency, the partiality of the whole
process and at the global level, its fact that it's not inclusive.  So, how
can we rethink the internet and trade?  There is a movement from across,
not just Civil Society, but industry groups as well, saying that we need to
reform trade negotiations.  This is a declaration that was produced very
early this year at a meeting in Brussels where the participant lez who were
broad cross succession from Civil Society and some industry representatives
as well, they agreed that there was a problem, that modern trade agreements
were unduly differential to a narrow class of stakeholders and contrasted
this to Internet Governance norms where we expect transparency, we expect
multistakeholder participation. And we made the point that if we were more
inclusive, that would result in agreements that would better align with the
values of the communities effected, such as cultural expression and
facilitatation.  So, here are some of the things we came up with, the
ability to access in freedom of information laws.  More balance on the
advisory bodies.  Proactive measures to engage experts representing the
internet, and also aligning trade negotiations with sustainable development
goals.  With that -- oh, and before I leave off, here is a diagram that my
organization, EFF has recently released which tries to summarize some of
the ways in which we could have more inclusive and balanced trade
negotiations.  It's actually broad trade negotiations but it does apply
trade negotiations amongst other policy form. I have copies of this.  Of
course, it's too small to read on the screen but if you would like a copy
of this document, I have one and can hand them to you at the end of the
session.  So, following these sort of recommendations about inclusion,
balance, and accountability.  Here are some of the ideas -- and this is my
last slide -- some of the ideas we could use to improve trade negotiations.
To make them more inclusive, we could make sure that users are resourced to
provide anticipatory -- resources like funding, translation, things like
that.  Travel.  We should be able to pull in recommendations from non trade
advisories to the trade process.  So the IGF, if it comes up with
recommendations, there should be a way to feed those into trade.  To make
them more balanced, we should make sure that there isn't this propet you'll
revolving door.  And to make them more accountable, and releasing
consolidated draft dates in between negotiating rounds.  These are not
radical proposals.  In fact, those bills before the U.S. Congress would
make some of these changes. So these are some of the ideas we might think
of to improve trade negotiations but you've heard enough from me.  I'm
going to pass on to our panelists.  We have first Burcu.  Viviana won't be
joining us, but we have, instead, Eileen, also a colleague of Viviana.  I
apologize that I wasn't able to update this slide but in the recorded
session we will appropriately identify her.  I'm going to introduce the
other participants as they come, but Burcu, would you like to take over?

>> BURCU KILIC: Yeah.  Thank you, Jeremy.  So, while I was preparing for
this panel, and I was thinking, because like with the recent developments
in the U.S., like, even the discussion has changed for us, now.  Like
because, I want to talk about the the TPP, preTrump, and then the post-
trump. Because the trade policy will change in the U.S., but before that,
just a very short overview of those three important trade agreements which
are almost at, like the TP Ps, that they say is like suffering.  And then
we don't know what's going to happen to TTIP, and then we have our set, the
Asian cousin of this which includes also almost the same rules. So the
common feature of all these agreements is the intensive secrecy.  There are
slide differences between the secrecy of the negotiations, but they all
take place behind closed doors.  And as Jeremy said, and this trade tri, in
this trade try owe, it's usually the trading rights of users and Xanax
against the agricultural and manufactured goods, and the resulting rules
are not those that further the global public interest but interest with the
partner with the largest market, or more specifically to those of its trade
Ministry.  So, this is the trade trio in pre-trump era.  And then in post-
trump era, because when Trump won the elections, the first thing he said
was they won the arrival of the TP.  So it became clear that this model is
not sustainable.  This is a 20th century trade model.  So what will be the
21st century trade model?  And we were discussing this, like we had this
Brussels Declaration, because we were planning to have a different model,
which is multistakeholder.  Which will make rules for the 21st century, but
now things have a changed so we will have bilaterals and bilaterals are not
necessarily good for developing countries.  So all these things have thing
has in common, like TPP. But the TTP rules are not going anywhere.  TTP is
showing up in TISA, even in RCEP.  U.S. is not part RCEP, but there is a
common understanding between the parties on e-commerce chapter, the same
rules in the TPP, they appear in RCEP.  So, we have to talk about the
rules.  Yeah.  The process is wrong.  It's not transparent, and we really
need to change the way it's negotiated, agreements are negotiated, because
it's not sustainable, but we also need to talk about the substance of these
agreements and rules.  Like, I don't know how many of you remember ACTA.
The European parliament killed ACTA and we were so proud of it because
people fought really hard for ACTA.  But ACTA led to the TTP.  ACTA
provisions were exactly the same as the TTP enforcement provisions and
people didn't really care because they were focusing so much on, yes, we
killed ACTA.  But there is the TPP and it will be the same thing with the
TPP.  Next bilateral agreements will have the same rules as the typical
because there were times U.S. was all alone in that room and U.S. was
pushing back.  So there were times we didn't like that agreement, and the
future, unfortunately, is not bright for us.  So we had to take action.  We
had to sit down and come up with a strategy.  And this is not about the
Civil Society.  I represent Civil Society.  I represent consumer rights
organization, but this goes beyond that. So, and I think this is a very
good, very interesting discussion and hopefully we can come up with some
kind of strategy or plan to deal with the future challenges, because I have
to say, we are heading into some very, very rough years.  And people need
to be reminded that, like, we have the power.  Like, we killed the TPP and
we can deal with the other agreements.  Now is the time.  Unfortunately,
like the president elect, regional is not one of human rights or user
rights or public interest, but it's more about the business interest,
commercial interest and knows r not necessarily every's interest.

>> JEREMY MALCOLM: Thank you very much.  Our next panelist is Marcela
Veliz.

>> MARCELA VELIZ: Hello, everyone.  This is okay?  This is the first time
I'm participating in IGF so thank you very much for the invitation and this
very important conversation that we're having here.  I had some brief
comments, preliminary comments prepared, but listening to what has been
said, I think it's important to address a couple of issues.  In general
terms, sometimes from the government when we hear the different speeches or
the different things that are being said regarding internet, and when I did
a small research, you can see that internet can be defined in different
ways or is going to mean different things for different actors.  And even
just if you look in Wikipedia what internet is and I was analyzing and
reading this book by Luciano, a philosopher, and it talks about the fourth
revolution and gives an interesting meaning for what technology means and
how we define ourselves through internet and then we go to the World
Economic Forum and see they speak about the fourth industry revolution and
give a completely different approach. The thing is that all of these views
are valued the same way, and probably what needs to happen is now we can
make them dialogue and make them sit down and have a more deep
conversation, and probably, this is beginning or this is one step in this
direction.  And exactly because these kind of statements, like the process
is wrong or there is a lack of transparency and when I see what my
government has been doing in the last few years, I wouldn't say that
represents what we're doing or the way we see the negotiations we're
involved in. But I have to say, though, it is important to have Civil
Society participation because as I will show you, an important part of the
different commitments that our government has started to commit to in terms
of transparency and participation started with interest on the issue.  In
general intentionals, when a government -- in general terms, when a
government involves itself in bilateral negotiations, normally they will be
done in a context of privacy with the counterparts.  We are talking about
other issues, gender, whatever issue a government sits down to have a
conversation with another government is going to be that way.  Now,
obviously, internet has been, as it is, a new dimension of existence of
humanity and it was borne in a very particular way with a multistakeholder
in its roots.  I think this has been an interesting challenge, how these
two, the normal way governments do bilateral agreements, how the internet
release lates itself.  I want to separate bilateral with plurilateral and
mainly multilateral because in multilateral, there is machine more access
to everything that is done.  I have to talk about WIPO where I'm currently
working day-to-day. WIPO meetings are instantly streamed to everyone and
even the committee on copy right and related rights even has a transcript
for visually impaired people so even people that can't see or hear, they
can read.  There is really instant access, and even meetings that are held
in more informal context, in the and, all the decisions are taken in
plenary more instant access to every. But coming back a little bit, the
director of trade issues or international trade issues within foreign
affairs that is the one that's in charge of trade negotiations.  In p
general terms, three things.  First, democracy is a basis, and I think this
is addressed in the Brussels declaration that it was cited before I spoke,
they make reference to the international and political rights and therefore
countries ratifying this agreement, it's important.  Also, it's important
to implement them.  But I was checking in the UN web page and there is a
very nice map where you can see all the colors, I like these images, in
colors, the different numbers of treaties that have been ratified in the
human right context.  And I think this is basic, having a Democratic
system, it's a basis that everything else would flourish from there.  The
second thinking is transparency and participation.  In terms of
transparency in 2008, our country enacted a new law for access to
information. It was consulate for transparency and created.  In the context
of the account, the trade office, we have done improvements in these
regulations.  In 2015, we received 150 requests.  All of them were
attended.  And it's interesting that in the accountability public report,
there it's stated that because of the interest in TPP text, in November
2016, both the Spanish and English versions were published online.  And
what I would highlight is the fact that the public report about what's been
done in 2015 highlighted that precisely because of the interest, because of
the requests that we have received through the transparency process that at
that time during the negotiation couldn't be uncertain in terms of exposing
the text, but once the negotiations were ended, immediately, these were
published in Spanish and English because it was requested. So, while I
think that the role of Civil Society is key to changing the procedures.
This is an ongoing process.  I have, also, other things to share with you
about public consultations, access to information, side rooms that we have
enacted.  Civil Society council, public hearings.  I think that -- I have
to say I feel very proud of what Chile has done.  I know what my country
has done.  I definitely believe that Civil Society has played a key role in
all these things to be included.  More and more, perceived as part of what
we need to document that's what I can say at this point, and looking
forward to the debate.  Thanks.

>> JEREMY MALCOLM: Thank you very much.  Now we're going to try and get our
remote participant online.  Can we bring up Eileen Quar?

>> There she is.

>> JEREMY MALCOLM: Welcome, Eilleen.  So, thank you.  This is Eilleen.

>> Thank you, Jeremy.  I wanted to follow on, and what Brussels was saying
regarding -- Marcela was saying regarding the TPP and how the provisions of
the TPP will continue to move on.  In July, the United States followed by
the European union, Japan and several other countries submitting
suggestions.  Now, I want to maybe highlight some of these.  So, aside from
the issue of the problem with transparency, it's definitely an issue at the
WPO, -- WTO.  (inaudible) Solving proposed rules that were suggested by the
United States.  Having impact on electronic commerce.  Discrimination.  The
free flow of data.  (Audio m muffled) Now, we have, many of the countries,
they put forward proposals based on the interest of the population.  And
the population that we have right now is that the internet has been set up
primarily as an information -- (no audio) As files people can then
download.  Now, this is worrying because today we have a trade route that
is not completely free.  It has been very carefully negotiated by all
governments and developing countries alike, and the reason for this is that
all countries are, you know, the issue of employment is important and the
issue of employment and the need for domestic producers to be able to -- I
hear the echo in my own voice so it's a little bit difficult to speak.  Can
you hear me?  Yes?  Okay. So the issue now is that we have a trade route.
Hello?  Hello?  Hello?  Can you hear me? Yeah.  Okay. So, the issue now is
that we have a trade route whereby we have protections, and the reason for
these protections is because we want to ensure that in developed and
developing countries alike, our producers get to produce and to sell.  So
it's been 50 years of negotiations plus another, I don't know, 20 more
years of WTO, whereby we have had these negotiations to carefully have a
trade route that is going to provide employment and enable, also, domestic
production.  Now, today, when the most technology onlyicly advanced
countries are saying, let's use the internet or and more and more as the
trade routes and have no protection, this is going to raise many, many
issues of production in many countries that will lose out and are not able
to be digitally savvy.  So, these are the concerns that we have.  How do we
align the needs, the different needs regarding trade with the issues
regarding openness for information, which is what we know the internet to
be? And this is what I would like us all, in the multistakeholder process,
to seriously contemplate because there is a very serious push, now.  A
very, very intense push at the WTO to very soon take on these new rules.
Thank you.

>> JEREMY MALCOLM: Thank you very much, Eileen and thanks for making the
effort to join us all the way from Geneva.  We appreciate it.  Now, I
wonder if the microphone will reach our next speaker.  I think it will.  So
David Snead is representing the Infrastructure Cogentin which is a
Coalition technology, he's also an internet provider.  We've heard from
someone in the government commission and Mr. Snead is a member of one of
the trade advisee committees so he's going to be able to give us an
interesting perspective as well.  So thank you, David.

>> DAVID SNEAD: I appreciate that.  I'm going to disagree, first, with what
Burcu referred to me kind of confidentially as the evil person on the
panel.  I'm only evil during Halloween, is the only time I'm evil.  And
when I'm negotiate s contracts, then I'm evil as well.  So listen.  What is
the top line for the internet Infrastructure Coalition?  What's the top
line for us in general, and why are we involved in this process? We're
involved in the trade process because we believe that all participants
should be given effective, comprehensive, and reasonable input into the
trade negotiation process.  And that's really our bottom line, and that's
why we're here.  That's why we participated in the Brussels Declaration. We
really look at the trade agreement negotiation and discussion process as
broken, and we see the multistakeholder process and providing, possibly, a
third way or third path for companies.  All right.  So, I'm echoing here.
So, why is -- your things broken?  The first thing is secrecy.  As Jeremy
pointed out, I'm on ITAC 8, and he mentioned that there are no Civil
Society groups on ITAC 8, and it's not because Civil Society groups are
excluded from participating in ITAC 8.  It's because the ITAC process or
the ITACs generally are not set up so that they can accommodate Civil
Society or, honestly, other trade associations into the way that they work.
The reason for that is Civil Society groups and most trade associations
have to go back to their members and talk about and form consensus about
what's being discussed.  When you're on an ITAC, everything that is
discussed is secret and confidential.  I have a security clearance that I'm
duty-bound to uphold. We're a little bit different because I'm able to
discuss what the I2 coalition does directly and make decisions but public
citizen, other trade associations are not able to do that so it's really
broken.  I don't know that reforming the ITAC process is going to lead to
better input from Civil Society.  I think what's going to lead to better
input in the trade agreements process is backing away from this notion that
everything that's discussed in a trade agreement negotiation needs to
remain secret.  And there are guides that we can see, ICANN, with all
ICANN's warts has proven an effective way of resolving disputes in an open
and relative hi transparent format.  We also see Congress, the way Congress
negotiates bills.  Bills actually are negotiated in public.  These are very
confidential.  People are given the opportunity to provide input.  Those
are all ways that we can look at this. I'm also going to disagree a little
bit to, with the notion that businesses and Civil Society are directly
opposed or have to be opposed in our viewpoints about internet and Internet
Governance.  If you look at our members, and you look at the companies who
work on the internet, we are very affected by privacy and privacy issues.
We're affected by data localization.  I think that it is wrong to draw a
black line and say that all data localization, all attempts to deal with
data localization are bad.  Our position is that data localization, as a
whole, is a bad thing with certain exceptions, and I think that we need to
think a little bit more like that.  So if you look at those kinds of issues
and you look at the issues that our customers are dealing with, we're not
actually directly opposed to what Civil Society or what other associations
want or what industry wants.  It's actually a little bit richer of an issue
than that.  So that's kind of how I wanted to frame my remarks but I do
really agree with the premise of this path, as it's come up, that the trade
agreement negotiation process is fundamentally broken.

>> JEREMY MALCOLM: Thank you very much, David.  That was really useful.
And thank you for taking issue with some things because that's the whole
purpose of this workshop, to bring out the issues where there may be some
differences.  So thanks again for that.  And our final panelist is Judith
Hellerstein from Hellerstein and Associates.  She's also got a private
perspective but maybe also a slightly different one, so thank you very
much.

>> JUDITH HELLERSTEIN: Yes, Jeremy.  Thanks so much for having me on the
panel and I definitely agree with you on how the U.S. government is working
on with multistakeholder engagement for the trade issues.  But the U.S.
government takes a very different approach depending on the agency that is
doing the engagement.  So, while as with trade with USTR, since they handle
it all, they are not really working closely, as David said, with industry.
And that version of ITAC does not work well with industry.  On the other
hand, you contrast that with the approaches that the department of commerce
is taking with self-regulation where they have the industry in council and
they come up, the industry itself comes up with different regulation rules.
And then, with other agencies are consulting with Civil Society, they're
taking the viewpoints, and they're accepting them or not accepting them.
But the U.S. state department when it works on having discussions with
other governments has a totally different perspective and they have an ITAC
process as well, but they run it slightly differently.  So they have their
three official meetings with ITAC and they appoint different stakeholders,
what they try to do on ITAC is appoint different stakeholders to the ITAC
process.  I'm on one of the ITAC processes but there's also different
committees, works on different policy issues and one that works on economic
policies. And you have to apply yearly and they have official meetings.
But besides that purpose, they, in addition to those, they have smaller
ITAC processes which are then run for all the different, like, for
instance, if they're running, creating policy positions for an ITU meeting
or UNESCO meeting or APAC or any other different forum where they're
talking about and negotiating for the governments, they have smaller
processes.  And in these processes, the stakeholders are invaluable and it
depends on how much time you want to spend on an issue, to if you want to
look at data localization and that coming up on an APAC, in the smaller
meetings, they'll ask you to, do you want to lead the panel?  Do you want
to create a white paper?  Do you want to do this?  Do you want to do that?
And there, Civil Society and other stakeholders can really take an active
role in that. And these, what he was saying with the ITAC, that relates
mostly of to when it is delegation mode.  The majority of the work that the
state department does in these preparatory meetings to prepare the state
and agency for the positions are what's called preparatory meetings.  They
are open to anyone shall as long as you're not a lobbyist.  But they're
pretty well open to anyone. And any of the views there can be shared and
feedback given to other Civil Society groups.  So if you want to create a
draft, you can share the draft with your whole group so that if I do
coalition or public citizen as a particular internet issue they're looking
at, they can be active on it. They can help write policy.  Help shape the
strategy for the state department.  They can report back to their own
communities.  It's only when you go to delegation mode and the state
department has taken very great pains to go as late as possible into this
delegation mode because they're very interested in seeking as broad as
possible engagement from different stakeholders, so they often try to delay
the start as much as possible until it's absolutely necessary because once
you're in a delegation mode, as David said, you can't share anything
without others.  But even the delegations are open to everyone so if you
want to attend as part of your delegation, there's a couple of simple
rules.  You apply.  You submit an application.  You explain why you think
your company or r your position will be valuable to helping shape the US
government, and that's really all you need. And then you get appointed.
You also want to say that you will actively participate since they don't
want people to just say they're on a delegation and not participate.  So
within those rules, you just participate.  If you don't have the funds to
attend the specific conference at the location, there's remote
participation so that you can actively participate.  And within the
delegation mode, there's a chance -- they often write white papers or other
issued documents that are just for influencing others.  So, you have a
chance to sort of lead one.  So I've led a couple of ones on broadband
issues.  So you can be the contact person for this paper.  While you're in
delegation mode at conference, you're not going to be the one that's
speaking.  It's going to be whoever's government official has been
appointed but you can feed into them issues or if you think they missed a
point, you can send them notes.  Even within delegation modes, there's ways
to get your opinion of either Civil Society, of your public sector, of your
private sector, of your academics to get things known. So, they take a very
different perspective than trade issues, which are very closed.  But in
line of those issues, they've been working also by, I think it was a Civil
Society group who actually was pushing for transparency openings and all IT
documents at the major conference at the planning potential.  They pushed
to get the ITU to open all documents to everyone.  So that note that
people, there was no need -- all the documents were sealed under a special
user account.  But now because of these rules, whenever there's an ITU
meeting, all the documents are open until they're negotiating on final
text, but all the documents are open because of this policy.  And there's
work to be done on trying to create the ITU and other groups to be more
open and more representative.  And so, I think there's a lot of work that's
been done already, and a lot of work to be done, and anyone is invited if
you're in the U.S. or, I know other -- Canada and Europe and other
delegates have similar ones.  And the effort for the ones that don't is to
push them to see, what is the value of a multistakeholder coalition and
push the other countries to have an open delegation.

>> JEREMY MALCOLM: Thank you very much.  That's really an interesting
comparison between the way the ITU has managed -- the ITU was regarded as
very closed and yet, it's made some progressive moves towards opening up.
We've also heard how WIPO, which has been criticized in the past but is now
regarded as exceptionally open amongst intergovernmental organizations in
terms of access to negotiations.  We've also heard that the World Trade
Organization, which was so badly regarded in its time that there were
riots, of course, back in Seattle, and yet now is almost the best amongst,
or is the best amongst the trade negotiations.  So, how can we learn from
these other institutions to maybe begin to reform some of the plurilateral
negotiations that we're seeing on the margins of the WTO and the
bilaterals. So, if you came in late, I know a few people walked in late.
Possibly because the wrong time was printed in the agenda.  Never mind.
You haven't missed hearing from our panelists because we're going to hear
from all of them begin.  We're not going to go around in exactly the same
format, but I'm going to invite any of the panelists who would like to
respond to what someone else has said on the panel first, and then after
that, we'll bring in the audience.  So is there anyone on the panel who
would like to respond to anything that has been said?

>> MARCELA VELIZ: Thank you, and this is a very interesting conversation
we're having.  I have four-points I would like to highlight at this point.
Initially, it's that I personally believe that this absolute rhetoric about
being bad or closed or evil, being from a government and receiving it, I
would say that it's not the best way to approach the negotiators.  And I'm
saying this openly.  For example, in the Brussels Declaration, I do believe
that the recommendations are quite interesting.  But I have to say that
some of the preamble language, I would say, I'm not sure if that really
reflects as we see negotiations in government.  Right?  So this is the
first comment.  The thing is that the process is broken, everything is
wrong.  Well, I have to say, in these examples that have been posted in
this panel show that we need to define probably having a more moderate
approach, even though I understand everyone has this role in this table,
would be advisable when approaching the government officials if you really
want to make a change in the procedures.  That would be the thing. The
second one is we heard two different things about WTO.  From one side,
Jeremy was sharing with us, which is true, that there's been a reluctance
to get into the e-commerce or digital trade negotiations because a lot of
developing countries want to first finalize agriculture and other issues
you but we also heard from our colleague in Geneva.  We can see this two
ways.  It could be a threat, but it's also an opportunity to discuss this
in a rich multilateral context. The challenge here would be if we can
somehow show all the members from WTO that this is an important issue for
everyone without saying that agriculture or the other issues are not
important, but in the end, all our country is involved in digital trade,
all the citizens are involved in digital trade.  Therefore, every country
should have a say and maybe having these discussions in WT O is not a bad
idea.  On the contrary, it's good to bring the discussion back. Personally
speaking, it's curious to me that it's the developing world that's keeping
this discussion from coming back so maybe this is a change and also a
challenge from Civil Society how we can show this as an opportunity of
having a discussion in this context instead of a problem for advancing
elements in the agenda that will still be there because it's part of what
we're doing in WTO.  Even though this is not what I cover, but it's just my
sense from looking from the outside.  Especially because one of the aspects
of this mandate in e-commerce had to do with trips with the related aspect
and trade, IP related aspects in trade.  So I'm more or less linked to
that. other things is that in our case, in TPP and because of the
importance that Civil Society was starting to attach to the negotiation, we
started with a side room in 2014 that was a place of discussion and debate
about what was negotiated that included Civil Society, business, and any
interested organization.  We had 100 organizations.  We had 54 meetings,
some of them online, video conferences from the place of negotiations.  I
know that this is something that's come to stay at this point.  I know that
in TISA they are also doing this.  I'm not part of this, but that's what
people reported to me that are in charge of these issues, that I thank very
much their help to prepare for this meeting.  And also in the new
negotiations we held, we might also have this side room as part of our
normal policy and trade negotiations. And finally, this idea that
everything needs to be discussed in FTAs.  Is that the case?  Like really,
we need to include everything in FT As?  I'm not so sure.  Again, this is a
personal perspective.  We've seen that there are other forests that deal
with trade issues as well that are not necessarily FTAs.  We also see that
UN has approved different decisions and resolutions that touch some of the
issues that are the concern of Civil Society. And I would like to repeat
what I would say eventually in the opening session, but I think there's a
lot more going on beyond the FTAs and that maybe it's important to look at
that as well.  Thank you.

>> JEREMY MALCOLM: Thank you.  David first, and then Burcu.

>> DAVID SNEAD: Great.

>> JEREMY MALCOLM: Yes, if Eileen wants to comment, can you let us know and
then we'll bring her in.

>> DAVID SNEAD: So I really appreciated your comment and I wanted to
clarify, or amplify, what I mean, actually, by the term broken.  Not host
of which because my phone keeps buzzing and that apparently is something
that people are very excited about, that I said the trade agreement process
is broken.  So, here's what I mean by broken.  To amplify it, it -- first
of all, the trade agreement process is not broken because governments are
not working.  The people I know at the U.S. Trade Representative are
probably some of the hardest working people that I have ever encountered.
They are insane, the amount of work that they do.  So it's not a --
something that's to take them to task.  What I really want to get at when I
say broken is, you're not involved, right?  EFF is not involved.  Public
citizen is not involved.  There's not an avenue for their concerns to be
brought to the attention of people who are negotiating in a meaningful
manner.  I don't say that to say that people who are negotiating agreements
aren't aware of the concerns that Civil Society brings up.  It's just that
the process isn't really designed to accommodate them because the process
was designed in the 30s, 40s, and 50s to deal with tariffs, right?  That's
the first point. The second is extreme secrecy.  I don't think that extreme
secrecy in the trade agreement process is warranted.  It's not open so much
in the business context anymore.  It's also very capital focused.  By that,
I mean you really have to be in Washington in order to influence US trade
negotiators.  You just have to be there to go in and meet with them. And
the third is, or the fourth is, it's really underresourced.  The internet
is a very young area as opposed to, say, the steel industry, and the issues
that are being faced haven't been resolved yet.  There hasn't been a
consensus about the issues we're discussing so there need to be more
resources to help surface those issues and try to come to some consensus
that will allow trade agreements to serve the purpose they're designed to
serve and that is to level a playing field for business to make business
transactions more easy.  That's honestly the real goal of trade agreements.
I wanted to amplify that.

>> JEREMY MALCOLM: Thank you.  Burcu and then Judith.

>> BURCU KILIC: Okay.  I have a couple of comments.  This digital trade
agenda, there is this digital trade agenda discussions going on the last
couple of years, and you see the same agenda everybody.  This is not the
FTAs.  We had the digital trade agenda.  APAC, even IBM has a digital trade
agenda but whose agenda is that?  Who created this digital agenda?  So we
talk about going back to opening the discussions on digital trade, but the
developing countries, they don't have digital trade agenda.  All the
digital trade agenda doesn't include the consumers or the users.  It's very
business oriented.  It's very U.S. business oriented agenda.  And we
discuss the agenda in every venue.  So going back to the W2, opening up
those e-commerce discussions is not beneficial for developing countries
because they haven't figured out their agenda yet.  Like, we have all these
infrastructure problems in Africa. Like, before we sort those problems, how
can we develop a digital trade agenda for Africa?  This is not the game of
equals.  We have big companies with the lobbying facilitate facilities
notice U.S.  They push for their own agenda in every venue then we have all
these countries trying to figure out.  And people tell them, e-commerce is
great for you because you will be able to sell your goods in the U.S., but
it's not going to work like that.  We haven't discussed that.  So opening a
negotiation in the WTO, we are not there yet.  The countries have to figure
out their own priorities, sort their infrastructure problems, and then they
will be ready.  Because the technology is developing.  I mean, ten years
ago, we didn't have Uber, we didn't have AirBNB.  We don't know the
technology we will have in the next ten years and coming up rules for those
technology and forcing countries in the WTO or other venues to come up with
rules for those future technologies is not working.  It's only working for
the businesses.  Who shaped that agenda?

Another thing, when we look at the digital trade agenda, the most important
issue is the transports.  Every time we raise this concern, especially the
businesses, like they blame us.  Like, so you don't want the technology?
Or you don't want the free flow of data?  Like in 21st century agreements,
in 21st century trade, of course there should be data transfers.  Of course
there should be across the border data transfers.  It has a legitimate
place but this doesn't mean we have to sacrifice or compromise our privacy.
Privacy or data protection shouldn't be discussed in trade agreements but
if we are putting provision on cross border data transfer or in a trade
agreement, my privacy becomes a part of that argument.  Of course that
should be something for my privacy and data protection. We have to see the
other side.  That's why we need to include consumer perspective, user
perspective, the developing country perspective, and then start the
negotiations.

>> DAVID SNEAD: And for the record, I agree with you.

>> JEREMY MALCOLM: Before I move on, I should say there is another panel
later today on the trade and services agreement where you can hear more
about the data transfers and data aspect and other part of the e-commerce
agenda.  So Judith, did you have some more?

>> JUDITH HELLERSTEIN: Yeah, sure.  I do agree with what a lot of the
things on the trade issues, which is also refreshing why on so many
internet issues they don't necessarily exist.  And I think also is the
value of being, if you decide to take part in any of these meetings.  So
while David is saying, yes, you have to be in DC to influence it.  With a
lot of the State Department task forces, in fact, even many of them, the
meetings are held on the phone and often times even the people in DC are
not at the meeting location, so they're interacting on the phone.  And they
may only come when a certain higher level official is coming to the prep
meeting.  So, if it's a prep meeting where the ambassador is briefing
people, you'll have a lot more people coming to the meeting that will be on
the phone.  So there is an equal access on that end.  But I also think,
what I think would be very helpful if they had it in other areas is if
you're on a delegation, they create these white papers and the idea of the
white papers are, what is the policy?  What are the best practices?  What
are the bad things some other countries are doing?  What are the good
things some other countries are doing?  So that way, when you have meetings
outside, as you know, many of the best parts of the IGF are the coffee
breaks or meetings in the hallways, so when you have these meetings in the
hallways, you can discuss these issues and explain them to different
country, to different people in different countries so that the developing
courts can more understand, oh, what is the point on privacy you have and
what is the point, what is the U.S. -- explain to them why cross-border is
really in their interest and that type of thing and I think these white
papers help to formulate that idea. Unfortunately, because they're created
in delegation mode, they can't be shared.  But, that's sort of how they're
taking.  And I know especially is, the U.S. especially within the I IT
framework is part of the latish American region and they are working very,
very closely with other countries in their region because it is felt to get
really, in this type of world, you need a regional perspective and you need
to really be cognizant and work with your region because if you don't work
with your region, you're not really going to get your points across.  And
so that, I think, is at least on the internet issues is looking, Okay. We
really need to be in step with our region and we need to educate them more
on certain issues and find out, what are the gaps, where we could go
forward.  And then one other point is, the multistakeholder, I think their
US government is really interested in finding places or people, if you find
in a particular session, ITU or other meetings you have, that sometimes
Civil Society is excluded or others are excluded that talking to government
officials and giving your viewpoints to them, they can then tell other
people, no, this should not be done.  No, they complain.  We need to have
this meeting open. And there's work towards that.  In fact, when the IGF
was being negotiated, the renewal negotiated last year, there was a UN
started homing meetings, there was a real push to educate the UN on the
style of multisector participation that was with us.  How we can bring
that.  How we can get these meetings to be more open.  And they were very
accepting to us.  They just didn't know.  It wasn't their norm so they were
not aware so they made great slides in the Civil Society forms.  Like okay,
how do we reach out?  Because that wasn't their norm and they were not used
to T. they were used to, in the UN, working only with governments.  So they
were not used to that.  But once you educate them, I found at least in that
forum, they were very receptive to hosting them and I know they did a lot
of work, especially with the IGF renewal, welcome Civil Society input so
welcome other inputs.

>> JEREMY MALCOLM: I think that's a useful point.  We can't regard any
country as being a single unitary organization.  Certainly, we do see
differences in the United States -- sorry to harp on the United States, but
between the United States trade representative, the state department, the
NTIA, the offices of science and technology policy.  These are different
agencies and parts of government which had often have different views.
Other example would be on ITs, there would be different perspectives
between USTR and the people who work on health and between the Library of
Congress.  One thing my organization and some of the other members,
including some on this panel, we're going to be participating on a meeting
that will bring some of those agencies of government together in material
next year, January next year to try and break some of the barriers and
actually get some discussion going not only between Civil Society and
government but also within the agency to the government. So, do we have any
interest from Eileen in coming in?  How about we move to the floor, then.

>> JUDITH HELLERSTEIN: We should get a roving mic.  Is there a roving Mike?
Do you have the mic to hand around?  They had them in this room before.

>> JEREMY MALCOLM: If not, why don't we ask the participants from the floor
to come up.  You can use this microphone.  So, Nick. (laughter)

>> Thank you.

>> JUDITH HELLERSTEIN: We got a mic.  We have a mic. (laughter)

>> Thank you very much.  Thank you, everyone, for a really fascinating
panel.  One of the questions I had is about the information costs of Civil
Society participating in this area.  It's hard enough, from what I hear,
for people who work full-time on trade issues to be able to participate in
all of these different agendas.  For those of us from Civil Society
organizations, and other sectors who are deeply interested in trade but
don't have the time to always follow along with everything and get up to
speed with that long institutional history that you were talking about, do
you have any ideas about how we might make it easier for a broader group of
stakeholders to be able to participate in here?  That was a really good
comment about white papers.  That was important.  I just wondered about
other ideas from the panel.

>> That's something we discuss in Brussels.  Like I spent the last almost
four years going to every TPP round, talking to negotiators, and they've
made a difference, I guess.  Because you have to be very present.  Like,
you have to go to the negotiation rounds.  But I was representing the Civil
Society and we created a travel budget for that and I put all my time and
energy into the TPP.  It somehow worked, but it wasn't enough.  I wish
there were more Civil Society members like in the lobby because the
businesses were coming as big delegations.  So, and that's something we
discuss in before you else, because like for us, that's something all of us
observe.  If you want to do trade, you have to go to those negotiations.
Like, and even if the doors are closed, you need to find physical therapy
window and try to get in.  And we came up with a couple of recommendations
and, yeah. Maybe you should talk about them.

>> JEREMY MALCOLM: Well one thing is that -- if you want to have
participation from other group, you need to really resource them.  We are
coming from a much less resourced position than other stakeholder groups so
obviously, our voice is going to be less.  So, there needs to be active
outreach, active facilitation of incorporating our views into the process.
And this takes time and it takes money.  But the legitimacy of the outcome
is going to benefit if it that happens.  And, the end result will be that
we're not going to have such a public disquiet over these agreements.  The
TPP was rejected so decisively because people thought they weren't being
heard and they were correcting that.  So it's even in the interest of the
lobbyists who want these events to go through to make sure that that
balance is also there.  Because they need to have public support for these
agreements. I don't think anyone on this panel would say that they're
antifree trade.  And, but we're just against the way that trade agreements
are done now.  They could be done better.  And institutions do change.  The
Internet Governance Forum didn't exist 20 years ago, and likewise, as David
said, the way the trade organization was set up was in the 30s and 40s when
tariff asks were set up.  It's the 21st century.  We can think outside of
the box and innovate, learn in redesigning the regime to work a little
better.  I won't go through all of the recommendations that we came up with
in Brussels but you can check that out by going to the website
opendigital.trade and there's a link there.  Also for anyone interested in
participating, because it's got a log-in, if you want to be able to log in
and actually work with us on trying to reform trade negotiation processes
with digital issues, you're welcome to contact me and I'll explain more
about how you can actually get involved.

>> We have an online question.

>> Eileen has a comment, but she doesn't connect account and she wants to
share the comment.

>> JEREMY MALCOLM: Just start speaking as soon as you're ready, Eileen.

>> Hello?

>> JEREMY MALCOLM: Yeah, we can hear you.

>> Great.  I wanted to add a few comments.  One would be in response to the
issue around whether we have these discussions at the WTO or not.  The
reality is that there is already an existing work program at the WTO and so
all members have agreed to have discussions and there are no countries now
that are opposed to having discussions because that was what they had
agreed to in 1998.  And so no one is now saying, let's not discuss.
Because it is a reality.  We all want to discuss to understand things
better, but what developing countries, some of them are saying is, we don't
want to have new rules and we don't want to have negotiations.  We want to
understand better.  Hello?  Can you hear me?  Yes.  So, they are saying, we
want to understand all of these things better and we need more time to get
our infrastructure in place. We need more time to have, to join to the
electricity grids because one-third of Africa only has electricity.  The
others do not. So, there is much more time that is needed before we can get
up to speed with this new way of doing commerce.  So, this is all countries
are saying this.  No one is basically not agreeing to discussions.  And I
also want to, back to defer with the point that was made that things are
more transparent at the WTO.  This is not so.  In the last Ministeral that
took place in Nairobi last year, you only had five countries that oversaw
most of the negotiations.  The majority of the delegations were sitting in
the coffee lounge buying coffee waiting for five delegations to come out
with the Nairobi Ministerial decisions.  No one had an overview of all the
things going on, and certainly not the most important things going on which
were put in at the last minute into the ministerial declaration.  So there
are huge problems in the way it functions. So those were the huge points
and I want to second what Burcu said around the issue of infrastructure.
There was a very interesting article by The Guardian and they went and
asked the African department bank president was, is e-commerce and
connection to the internet going to reboot Africa? And his answer was,
well, only one-third of the people in subSaharan Africa have access to grid
electricity.  So, first, if you can't have electricity, you can't drive
industrial development.  So first things first.  We need to first build the
infrastructure.  Thank you.

>> JEREMY MALCOLM: Thanks.  So that's very useful to clarify that there
will be some form of digital agenda going forward at the WTO and that it's
not necessarily going to go forward in the way that we want in terms of
transparency and participation.  So any other questions or comments from
the audience?  Yes.

>> JUDITH HELLERSTEIN: Can you get the mic?

>> JEREMY MALCOLM: Pass the mic.  Thanks.

>> Hi.  Jaco from EDU.  I want just to underline two points that I think
are useful.  The first is that we have experienced a similar situation
after the cultural exception, so called.  Because there, we have a
multilateral agreement that then failed.  Didn't cover the specific point.
And then we have a way that they do to improve bilateral agreements.  What
was essential not to lose the point was that the Civil Society in each
country and all the interested parties were very attentive to control what
was happening in each country in bilateral trade agreements in order to be
sure that what was the cultural exceptions so code would be respected even
when it comes to bilateral agreements. I think we are now in a similar
situation.  We have to respect as Burcu said directly that we are moving
the other things into bilateral agreements so it will be equally important
as it was for us in the past to have a constant watch on this point in each
country.  And have a network in exchanging information.  In Europe, we've
set up the coalition, the network of the coalition for cultural diversity
that is linked to the UNESCO treaty on cultural diversity.  Through that,
we're monitoring the situation all over the world concerning the cultural
aspect of the trade. The second thing is concerning this specific workshop.
I remember that it has in the past been difficult even to get this workshop
discussed.  In the past, we had a huge dispute about this.  It's a signal
that this is an argument that hurts and this is a signal we're on the right
track.  When it hurts, it means there's a problem and the IGF has been
created exactly so spot the problems and try to see solutions.  Thank you.

>> JEREMY MALCOLM: We've seen in several areas where there has been a
reluctance at first for issues to be taken up by the IGF.  We saw that with
critical internet resources back in the early days, net neutrality, and I
think trade is a sensitive issue there.  But this year we do have three
workshops and one session on trade.  This is the first of the workshops.
There are two more workshops.  One coming up this morning on TISA, which is
in room 4, and that's just after the coffee break.  Then we have one on the
transPacific partnership, which may be dead and yet it's still being
implemented in some of the countries that agreed to it so it's not quite
dead yet, and it is a model for future trade agreements.  So that workshop
is coming up Thursday morning, the TPP workshop, and then Thursday
afternoon, we have the main session which I hope you will all attend. It
will be the last main session of the day.  So we have about ten minutes
left for further questions.

>> BURCU KILIC: Can I make comment about IGF and trades, because that's
something we've been working really hard the last couple of years to bring
trade issue to the IGF and to bring the trade negotiators to the IGF
because that's something we realized when we were working with TPP and
other trade negotiations.  We discuss, we have all these values like
multistakeholderrism, transparency, openness, but we can't really translate
-- like we can't really translate that message to the trade people.
Because we come from different worlds.  They speak the trade language and
the language is completely different from their language and until very
recently, there were different interactions.  So this IGF is very
important.  Especially the main session.  We brought like two trade
negotiators and then we have like the industry businesses, the
representatives from businesses and the Civil Society, and we are going to
discuss internet and the trade and the policy making for internet in trade
agreements. But I think we are taking good steps, like in terms of
connecting the two different words which have their own languages.

>> JUDITH HELLERSTEIN: Yeah, and I'll comment on that.  And I think what
Burcu was saying was exactly success that IGF found last year when right
before that IGF renewal was going to be passed was that they got the
leaders from UN Dessa who were organizing this to come to an IGF and to
experience what it is to be an IGF and what it is to have everyone on equal
footing where government is on the same footing as Civil Society, and where
all these issues are discussed.  And I think that really helps people who
figure out, oh, yes.  This is what multistakeholderrism, this is what it
is.  And then they bring it because, as you were saying, they speak a
different language.  And they only speak about governments and they don't
know what the interaction is.  And from talking to some of the
representatives from Dessa last year who came from the different countries,
they were not -- they were the country reps that were chosen by the UN to
lead the renewal process.  They got an eye opening of what it is, and they
were able to understand, then, the new language of what it is and why it's
more important to them and I think that's what's going to be essential for
what you're doing, bringing in negotiators here so they can really
understand it.

>> MARCELA VELIZ: Just a final comment because some issues have been said
and I'm sorry to go back to the discussion, but just very briefly regarding
what's going on in WTO and, I agree with the things that have been said
regarding the relevance of infrastructure and connectivity and even for
innovation.  Like, the type of connectivity that countries have, that's
critical.  Because we've seen in some of the African countries that we have
a very arrays of mobile connectivity, but I'm not sure if people will
innovate through their cell phones.  Actually, probably they will need flat
connection to the internet and these are the ones that are not being
raising in developing countries. So, I completely agree with that.  Now,
that could be part, also, of their active interest in WTO.  That's not
necessarily opposing to other kind of provisions to be put forward and even
though there is a mandate as has been pointed out here, it has been very
difficult to have any kind of concrete outcome from this.  So more or less,
that's what I was addressing. But I do believe there are a lot of issues
that can be addressed.  Consumer protection, was initially talked about
here.  And the issues of privacy, I wouldn't say this is a developing,
developed issue.  This really is across the board.  What we think of it.
How it could be developed and education is a critical thing.  I have to say
I'm really happy to be herement I appreciate the invitation and really
looking forward to the workshops as the participants.  Thank you.

>> JEREMY MALCOLM: Great.  So we have about five minutes.  Are there any
questions from the audience?  Yes, can you pass that?

>> Yes, Krishna from the school of governance.  It was very interesting
listening to you guys, and I have one comment to make on common language.
I feel the common language is economic function and I feel what the
internet has done, the internet as such is new, but what it has done is not
something new.  What it has done is brought down the transaction cost for
communication.  It has brought down the transaction cost for trade and
everything.  I feel what it has done is done erg that trade negotiators are
still trying to do which is building trust and having platform for
transition cost.  I still don't understand why trade negotiators don't see
this.  The thing that be internet has achieved, and embrace these models
for better functioning.  Thanks.

>> JEREMY MALCOLM: Thank you.  Well, unless there are any other
contributions from the audience, I'm going to give each of the panelists
just one minute to close, and I'm going to begin with David since he hasn't
spoken for a while.

>> DAVID SNEAD: Sure.  Which is kind of unusual for me, but that's kind of
the way things go.  So, this is a very important forum to participate in,
and I'm very glad to be able to do it.  And so tall for inviting me to be
-- thank you all for inviting me to be on the panel.  I want to leave with
the same statement that I started out with, and that is, in order for trade
and trade negotiations and trade agreements to work, the process for
negotiating, constructing, and implementing them has to be open, and
available to everyone who is affected by the trade agreement.  And that's
really our top line.  And I really want to leave with that statement.

>> JEREMY MALCOLM: Thank you.  Judith?

>> JUDITH HELLERSTEIN: Thanks so much for having me.  I also just want to
emphasize that to really make your voices known that if you want to
participate at all, if you want to get more involved in what your
government is doing, make court reporter voices known.  You could also,
within your

countries, speak to the local Internet Society chapter.  They are also
working to help out on educating governments on the right policy issues for
multistakeholder.  And so just working with nem and in the U.S., making
yourself known to the people who are doing it so that that way, they can
have the input and hopefully, others, this idea of multistakeholders will
spread to other ones and trade will open up.  Other areas will copy that,
like copied the other ones.

>> JEREMY MALCOLM: Thank you.  Eileen has a comment.  Okay. Put her
through.  Thanks. shall we take her -- Marcela, do you want to go first
while we're waiting for Eileen to come in?

>> MARCELA VELIZ: I will.  I more or less did some final comments but I
just would like to add from a government perspective that participation is
important, so the voice of Civil Society of businesses is relevant gore
government officials.  That's definitely the case.  And I would advise to
have constructive contributions to the process, because it's much easier
for us as legislators to improve those views within the process.  That
would be my final comment, and definitely, this kind of event helps very
much to build this trust that's needed.  Thanks.

>> JEREMY MALCOLM: Thank you.  Is Eileen ready?

>> Hi, I'm ready.  Hello?  Yeah.  Great.  Just a last comment on trade
liberalization.  I think I want to say that no country has simply gone out
and done trade liberalization, not developed and not developing countries
because there is limit to protect, and you know, you have -- employment to
protect, and you know, you have people that need work at home.  And this is
an issue so much alike now in developed countries.  It's also a big issue
for developing countries.  So the internet needs to be thought through very
carefully when it is used as the trade route because trade liberalization
even though it's prepared by some governments are not being implemented by
the same governments, for example, in the area of agriculture.  So those
are the sensitivities of the U.S. and the EU developing countries have
similar issues in the area of agriculture but also in the areas of product
and services because they are less competitive than developing countries,
so if they open up, they would be opening up to importing unemployment.  So
trade liberalization, yes, we have to have strategic liberalization, but
it's not about big bang, let's open everything up.  We need to think it
through very, very carefully.  Thanks.

>> BURCU KILIC: Must final comment is, we are running to the TISA panel
now.  Please come there and learn more about TISA and the rules.  We're
going to talk about the substance, and we have a really great panel.  So
hopefully see you.  Room 4. (laughter)

>> JEREMY MALCOLM: And see you at the main session at the end of the week.
So thank you very much to all our participants and to the audience
(applause)

(Session was concluded at 10:32 a.m. CST (

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INTERNET GOVERNANCE FORUM 2016 ENABLING INCLUSIVE AND DEANABLE GROWTH
JALISCO, MEXICO

6 DECEMBER 2016 OF53 YOUTH IGF E. U. DELEGATION 10:45 A.M.

>> PILAR DEL CASTILLO: Hello?  One minute.  And then everything explodes.
It's Okay. It's okay.  Can everybody hear?  Hello?  Take a seat.  Okay.
Apparently, there's a lot of people who want to come into the room.  This
room is way too small.  I am Pilar.  But, no, no.  I am not Pilar.  Okay.
Just for the record -- yes, I'm going to say my name.  Hello, everybody.
For the record, it's funny.  Yeah.  Yeah.  We need some jokes.  We need
some laughter.  Keep the laughter going.  Listen.  Okay. hello, everybody.
Okay. For the record, my name is Lee Hibbard.  I am from the Council of
Europe, and I welcome you to this dialogue, this Open Forum invitation for
dialogue between decision makers and the Youth IGF in conjunction with the
E.U. delegation.  For the record, I'm not Pilar.  Pilar is on the second
row and should be speaking a little bit later. I'm sorry for those who are
not in the room, who can't get into the room, but if you get bored, you can
always leave and bring --

>> Ten seconds for the streaming, right?

>> LEE HIBBARD: Yes.  Okay.

>> On the five, four, three, two, one, and you start to speak.  Okay?

>> LEE HIBBARD: Okay. I'm waiting.

>> Five, four, three, two, one.

>> LEE HIBBARD: Thank you.  Wow.  Welcome, everybody.  Let's clap
(applause) Thank you.  And welcome.  Welcome to this Open Forum on dialogue
between decision-makers and the young, different young people from across
the world.  We have some here.  We have some European youth delegates and
this is being organized in conjunction with the organization together
between cyber crime and E.U. delegation, which are wonderful.  Thank you
for coming.  My name is Lee Hibbard.  I'm the moderator for this
conversation from the Council of Europe, it's going to be a dialogue, very
open and very interactive.  It's really exciting that we have many people I
hope on remote from the different youth groupings who are going to come in.
Unfortunately, we have only one hour together and it's already ticking.
I'm going to be really, really short.  I ask you to be really, really short
but get your point across.  I have a co-moderator from the French youth
grouping, Sabrina Abualhaiga.  Maybe.  Almost.  I'm sorry, we have Stuart
Hamilton from IFLA and many colleagues from the E.U., including European
parliament.  I'm looking for Megan Richards.  I don't see her.  She was
supposed to come in, but hopefully later.  And we have Pilar Del Castillo
from the European that will make a short going forward.  We're going to
start. Pilar, can I ask you to give a few words about why we're here
bringing youth to the table to talk about decision makers, what that means
for you, for the E.U., for European parliament and if I could ask you to be
quite short.  I would ask main menu Maciel from the DiploFoundation to keep
me on time.

>> MARILIA MACIEL: Thank you very much for this opportunity to be here with
you today --

>> PILAR DEL CASTILLO: Thank you very much for the opportunity to be here
with you today.  We are a delegation from the European parliament composed
of 12 members of European parliament of different committees, different
Member States from Europe.  What I would like to tell you I'm going to take
an example from the committee we have been participating on.  Which it was
on internet, and security.  Well, in that context, we were debating with
the US people and there is initiatives in which the multistakeholder
approach to these specific issues is absolutely one of the most important
trends in technology.  The opinion of the stakeholders, this is extremely
important to the experience when they face these new trends technologies.
When using connected devices.  In the development of Internet of Things,
all experience for those digital people, very advanced in the daily life
users. I think it's important.  The angle is totally different.  And this
angle, which is the present and is the future, should be present at the top
level.  So that's my reflection.

>> LEE HIBBARD: Thank you very much.

>> PILAR DEL CASTILLO: Thank you.

>> LEE HIBBARD: Thank you.  Right, we're going to car carry on.  I want to
bring Sabrina was Sabrina is a youth ambassador from France, my co-
moderator.  I wanted to say some words from a youth perspective.  What do
you say to Pilar to your decision makers in the room.  Thank you.

>> SABRINA ABUALHAIGA: Hello, everyone.  Everybody hear me?  Thank you.
Okay.  So hello, I'm Sabrina.  I'm 24 years old and I'm Youth IGA
ambassadors.  I participated in the organization of the meeting of the
youth in France.  And so I'm here today with my -- with Ted from France, my
colleague. Hi, Ted.  Yeah.  Just shy.  Okay. And, yeah.  And as well as
Nicola from Uruguay and Abdir from Chad.  We're here to deliver the message
of our meeting.  Oh, yeah.  You're here.  Okay. (laughter).  Hello.  Okay,
yes. we are here to deliver the message of our meetings.  There are many of
us from other countries such as Bangladesh, IT, Liberia, Lithuania,
Pakistan, present online.  And they will present.  We are very happy to be
here today because we have this opportunity to deliver our message to the
decision makers.  As always, we say that the voice of young is important,
but the difficulty is how we can deliver the youth voice to the decision
makers.  And this is the issue.  And that's why in this point this Open
Forum is unique.

>> LEE HIBBARD: Thank you very much, Sabrina.  Sabrina is also going to
bring about an ideas box.

>> SABRINA ABUALHAIGA: I would also like to say that we have a box for
ideas, so before leaving, if you have ideas to share with us on what's next
on what can be our follow ups or the feedback on this meeting, please just
leave your ideas in my idea box.  Thank you.

>> LEE HIBBARD: Thank you Sabrina.  So let's get started.  Megan, I'm going
to cue you up in 30 seconds.  I just wanted to say that there have been
over the last year 15 different youth events across the world.  I think
it's worth naming the countries and our friends from the youth in different
countries who took the time to meet and discuss.  Bangladesh, Chad, Czech
republic, India, France, heighty, Kenya, Liberia, Lithuania, Nigeria,
Pakistan, Russia, Sudan, Ukraine, and Uruguay.  That's a lot of youth
mobilizing.  That's pretty impressive, I would say. I hope you have the
documents on your chairs with the summary of the meetings and nice
photographs.  I think it's really impressive to see the mobilization of
young people on these issues, so thank you to you.  Megan richards, can I
ask you to be very brief?

>> MEGAN RICHARDS: I'm always brief.

>> LEE HIBBARD: Yes, very brief before we carry on with the discussion of
remote participants.

>> MEGAN RICHARDS: Absolutely.  Good morning, everyone.  It's wonderful to
see so many of you here.  It's like squeezing as many people as you can
into a Volkswagen.  I think we should get an even smaller room.  I'm not
going to tell you how old I am, but I feel 18 so I feel in exactly the
right spot.  I have a couple of messages for you.  One is that you are the
future, of course, of the internet.  Of us in this room over 25 have
experienced the benefit that the internet has brought to us over the last
20 years.  What is important for you is to make sure that those benefits
and advantages continue in the future.  We've seen with the rise and
expanse of the internet in the only the benefits but also many of the bad
things.  Cyber crimes, cybersecurity, challenges, et cetera.  So what we
have to do is make sure in the future the benefits dominate and that you
have get to have these very many benefits of communication, economy,
innovation, et cetera.  So this is where your role is really very
important. The other thing I wanted to mention to you is that I think your
message is, of course, very important, which Sabrina said, but you should
not hive off into a separate Youth IGA.  You should be knocking on the
doors.  You should be interrupting these sessions.  You should be
contributing.  You should be participating in all the main sessions because
your voice is very important.  You are the future, as you know.  And you
are the ones who are going to determine how things work in the future. So,
if you have your Youth IGA and discuss all sorts of things in one group,
the rest of us won't hear it so your contribution and participation is
really very important so I look forward to seeing all of you.  And don't
worry about how old everyone is.  We're all young at heart because we all
use the internet.  So thanks.

>> LEE HIBBARD: Thank you very much, Megan.  I would say the youth of today
are also the forefront, the battle front of Internet of Things and all the
technology to come.  Data portability we hear a lot more about.  Choices
have to be made.  I really salute you in going forward and making those
choices also based upon human rights.  I would like to cue up a message now
from Lambert van Nistelrooij.  Excuse me.  You can come to the front,
maybe.  Apologies for pronouncing your name incorrectly.  Please, you have
the floor if you could be brief.

>> LAMBERT VAN NISTELROOIJ: Just one main comment to the audience today.
When I look here to the young people and where they come from.  In these
days, from Europe, we also work on digital.  On the ICT world and the
competitiveness, cooperation to both.  But all these countries can be their
own valleys.  The road to the valley is to use the internet.  And I have to
question to the audience, especially to the youngsters, how they perceive
the possibilities to start their own company from Bangladesh, from Russia,
from France, et cetera.  Because there is a lot to be gained both in
quality of life but also in entrepreneurship.  That's what we immediate.
And maybe I give this message to you to think about and to get something
back in this session.

>> LEE HIBBARD: Thank you.  That's a very important message.  Yes.  Indeed.
Thank you very much for that.  I'm going to cue up also Stuart Hamilton,
who's with us.  But before I get to Stuart, I want to ask a question to the
audience but also, I'm going to cue up Julie first before you.  But I'd
like you to think about a question from our remote colleagues from the
youth delegate and also the room, too.  But before that, one of the main
organizers of this session is Julia, and she's not with us.  She's on
remote.  Is she ready to speak?  You have the floor, please be brief.
Thank you.

>> YULIYA MORENETS: --

>> LEE HIBBARD: Okay. Yuliya.  Go for it.

>> YULIYA MORENETS: Thank you, Lee, for allowing me to speak today.  My
name is Yuliya Morenets.  It was born in the Council of Europe in 2011
where we organized a meeting with youth age 14 to 16 years old to discuss
government issues and based on their recommendations was Youth IGA, which
became Youth IGA movement this year in 2016.  Which became actually a
platform that allows the young to organize meetings at local, regional,
national levels to discuss internet governance related issues.  I would
like, first of all, to thank these young people who organized the meetings
from all over the world from Haiti to Pakistan this year.  We started this
year the project with zero budget, and I think this is just fantastic and
shows the engagement, how they are interested in this subject.  Afterwards,
a came a number of partners who supported us, and I would like to thank
these partners, other local and regional partners for their support. I
would like also to say that the Youth IGF movement today -- last words to
be short, I would like to thank the European delegation for having accepted
and coordinated this meeting with us and to come and discuss they were
actually preparing for this message for a number of months where they are
very much all on site or online to speak to you.  And I hope that the
discussions will be very fruitful and allow the constructive outcomes.
Thank you so much.

>> LEE HIBBARD: Okay, thank you.  Very kind of you.  We are sort of on
time.  I'm going to go to Stuart now to ask a question before we go to
remote and we'll start with the Czech Republic before Bangladesh.  I'd like
to say thank you to Julie Ward, you'll be doing part of the wrap-up.  Thank
you.  Stuart.

>> STUART HAMILTON: Hi, everybody.  I'm here from the library sector and
extremely pleased to hear so many voices.  It will probably come as no
surprise to you that as a librarian I'm interested in how young people
access information.  The question I have is, we're hearing so much about
fake news, about living in a post-truth society.  So I'd ask the remote
participants, particularly, but everybody in the room, where do Youth IGF
colleagues go to find their information online?  What is their most
trustworthy source and why do theses find that trustworthy?  For me and for
awful us using the internet, I think that's a good question to bring into.

>> LEE HIBBARD: Good question.  I would like your views, too.  I think we
have -- and I would like to confirm that, we have Czech republic on the
line but we also have, I hope Bangladesh and Chad on the line, too, and
hopefully colleagues from France, Haiti, Nigeria, Liberia.  Very exciting.
Yuliya, can you cue up Czech Republic now?  You have the floor.  Please be
brief.

>> Czech Republic: Hello?  You can hear me.  Hello, I organize meetings
just now and a few days ago.  It was in the end of June so I would like to
introduce both people and we would like to go to two main issues about you.
So all of the data protection and the main one was just how to make sure
how they could be safe and safer when we just share some things on the
internet, and the main topic we talked about and worries a lot of people
all about cookies and how we could get more information about that and more
explaining.  How it should be, and what you agreed on, and agree on sharing
these cookies.  So we thought about a new campaign to give cookies and
mainly, choosing are cigarettes bad pictures, people stealing your walls,
ID, credit card, passport, and showing the imimpact of you agreeing to that
and giving personal data to everybody on the internet.  So thank you, I'm
very glad to talk to you and by with you.  Thank you very much.  -- be with
you.

>> LEE HIBBARD: Thank you very much.  I don't know whether you all heard
that.  That was rather muffled.  I hope you can read it and if you can't,
I'll summarize very quickly.  Our colleague from Czech Republic was
concerned about data protection and safer online use.  Cookies in
particular.  I would like more information.  So clearly youth need more
information.  Where do they get that information from.  Stuart is asking a
question about choice and access to information.  So information is key.  I
see colleagues here from the public service media, I know colleagues back
there hiding to do with safer internet and issues related to that, Sonya
Livingston and Susie.  Other colleagues as well.  I take notes of that.
I'd like to queue up other remotes.  Who's next?  We're not there yet?
Stuart, have you any response to that regarding the need for cookies, on
data protection?  You talked about it from a library perspective very
briefly.

>> STUART HAMILTON: Just that it's absolutely vital.  What we call digital
literacy of which digital literacy is a part.  Something I feel quite
strongly should be taught in schools and using school libraries to talk to
people from an early age about online safety and we heard data protection,
which is something I think needs to be in schools.

>> LEE HIBBARD: We have parliamentarians, too, from the European Unions.  I
don't know if you want to come in quickly, Julie, Pilar

>> JULIE WARD: From here?  Yeah?  I think two things, in terms of media,
two things are really important.  Sorry, can you hear me?  Yeah?  Media
literacy obviously.  It's hugely significant that we become media literate,
and I actually think that young people in many ways have are far more media
literate than many older people.  If we think about what happened in my
country regarding the Brexit vote, many young people were far more intuned
to what was going on and understood Europe better than some of the older
generations.  And I think media lurallism is really important.  Whilst
media is in the hands of a few players, we're not getting that variety and
diversity of youths so we have to have diversity in on online space as
well.  If you're still waiting, I can say something else.  I think that
media is a common space for and needs to be kept available and open and
safe for young people, for communities.  And I work a lot on the idea of
the commons.  What is common for us?  What is good for all of us?  And this
idea about the internet being part of the commons is a really, really
important one. And we had a brilliant commons assembly in the European
Parliament recently and I would like people to think a bit more about those
things and when they're talking about enterprise to think about social
entrepreneurship and social enterprise and how that could link also with
this idea of the commons around media pluralism and media literacy.  All
those things need to link together.  Sorry, I just got off a plane, folks,
from Brazil in another time period H.

>> LEE HIBBARD: Thank you very much and we have a remote mic there, too.
We have Bangladesh queued up now so I would like to ask you to wait.

>> Just a short comment because you asked for European Parliament.  A
member of the parliament.  I just wanted to state we are really focusing on
all different aspects of the internet.  We are trying to put a very common
and sound legal framework in place in the different communities.  Is it in
the community when it comes to issues like data protection, data security.
I was in Washington last week with the U.S. delegation.  We discussed with
our American counterparts how to really improve the data privacy situation.
Then there is other committees, like, for example, I'm from the industrial
committee.  We are discussing things like big data, Internet of Things,
digital market strategies.  A framework that is really important and keeps
the framework that internet can work out well and can be a benefit for both
consumers and industry.  And the second thing I really wanted to mention
and want to stress what Maggie said before, it is really important that you
youth be part of the multistakeholder network.  That you are not an extra
layer but do your part of the multistakeholder approach.  You are maybe the
most important stakeholder because you're the future and that's why we
really need your arguments, especially in the field when it comes to
legislation and we need to come to similar stakeholder dialogue.

>> LEE HIBBARD: Thank you.  I would add that yes, robust legal frameworks
but I wish we -- one thing is we all choose and accept every day and do we
have that literacy to really make informed choices not necessarily
understanding the law or terms of conditions and services.  We have law Deb
on the line.  I would like you -- Bangladesh on the line.  I would like you
to come in and ask and also maybe you have responses to our colleagues from
the European Union delegation.  Thank you.

>> Bangladesh: I hope I'm audible.  I'm from Bangladesh, representing
Bangladesh IGF which is part of Youth IGF.  Last month, we have our first
Bangladesh IGF youth event.  There, we discussed a lot of topics.  Among
them, one of the most important ones was connecting the unconnected people.
Most of our population are still living in rural areas, so while we are
talking about connecting the next billion, we need to consider our rural
people and these are people to be connected to the internet. So, along with
the connectivity and access, it is really important to have more content
and friendly application for the unconnected people.  Which means
availability of more local content in more local languages.  So, yeah, that
was one of the very important topics that we had discussed in our forum,
and really, they want the information leader to put more importance on the
contents that should be accessible easily and friendly by the unconnected
people.  Thank you.

>> LEE HIBBARD: Okay.  Thank you very much.  Thank you very much.  It's
very important.  I think knowing that this year's IGF, the overarching
theme is enabling inclusive growth.  We talk about leaving no one behind.
The importance of connecting the next billion users is key to that and I
would underline the point about critical user literacy from those from
developing countries.  I think we have Haiti on the line and I would like
to come to them, but I would also like to queue the colleagues here who
would maybe want to respond after -- unless there's somebody now.  Do you
want to come in now briefly or can we wait until Haiti speaks?  We'll wait
until after.  We'll have Haiti, first of all, coming in, and then we'll
pass to the flor.  Please, Haiti.  Anybody?  Is anybody there?  No? Well,
while we're waiting for Haiti, and tell me if there's anybody else on the
remote, I'd like to come to our colleagues.  Does anybody want to comment
on the points being made by our colleagues from different forums across the
world.  Local languages, Stuart mentioned it, you mentioned it, literacy,
robust legal framework, how do youth fit into all these things?  Do they
have information? Really they really taking part in building the policy?
I'd like to know more from you.  I see somebody here who would like to have
the floor.  Please, thank you.  Please, please.

>> Okay. I'll actually focus on your last question.  How are youths
interacting with all this dialogue.  Within the European Parliament I lead
the parliament's negotiation and practices of copy right in the digital
space and I also shadow within the legal affairs the robotics.  So I think
that when we speak of the digital single market, when we think of copy
right in the digital space, when we speak of robotics, for me, they are not
the future.  They are the present.  Because whatever legislation we are
going to come up with, you will have to live with.  So I would really,
really encourage youths to think that you are the present and you need to
lobby us.  You need to interact.  You need to dialogue.  We will, too.  But
I think this is really important because if we speak of, for example, copy
right and the digital space and digital literacy, user generated content, I
would say, is predominately an issue for youths.  Yet, where is the voice
of youths there?  And we do have a proposal now on the table, and I think
if my message here is really one, where I would encourage, heavily
encourage youths to participate in all the debates related to the digital
single market packages because this is a regulation which will regulate how
you use the internet.  How you interact on the digital space.  Thank you.

>> LEE HIBBARD: Thank you.  Another important point about copy right and
the use of it, and of course fair use.  These things are coming time and
time again so thank you for that important comment.  I wonder, we have
Haiti coming up so before we get that.  We have a European sun contest.  I
wonder if we shouldn't have a global European youth contest, make it even
more glamorous than it is now.  I'm being silly now.  Haiti, please talk to
us.  Are we there?

>> Haiti: Hello?  Hello?

>> LEE HIBBARD: Okay.  If you're not there, I'm going to queue up other
people.  Oh, you're there.  We can hardly hear you.  Can you lift the
volume, please?  The volume up?  No, it's the highest?  We're not hearing
you.

>> Haiti: Hi.  You can't hear?

>> LEE HIBBARD: I can hear you faintly.  Haiti, if we can't get to you, can
you make your comments through the chat and we'll communicate?  I'm really
sorry but we really cannot hear too much.  I note, also, there are a lot of
young people in the IGF.  There are 88 young people coming from the ISOC
community so I think ISOC.  I see Enya from the back from the IGF
Secretariat and I know she wants to say a word.  Can we give the mic to
Anja, please?

>> Thank you so much -- I just wanted to say that currently coordinating
Youth IGFs.  Currently, there are eight Youth IGFs listed on the website.
Some of them are indeed wonderful of the capacity building done by the
Youth IGF movement and by the wonderful work that Yuliya was creating.
Some of them are fully organic.  They organize themselves in accordance
with the five main IGF principles.  They are the result of a bottom up
process.  They are multistakeholder, inclusive, open, transparent, and they
are not commercial. Some of them are supported initiated by the national or
regional IGFs.  So if you would go on the IGF website, you can see all
those initiatives.  You can also see their reports, which I think, is a
very important input to the IGF.  Megan said something very important this
morning.  She said that we need to knock on other doors.  What the IGF
wants and the IGF Secretariat is to create channels where other
stakeholders will knock on your doors.  Sometimes it's not pleasant to
knock on the doors of people that you don't know so what we are trying to
do now is to run a couple of public consultations after this IGF with the
community of the youth IGFs.  You are more than welcome to follow the
update on the website of the IGF but also you are more than welcome to
attend the Wednesday main session on the NRIs. Some of the colleagues that
are from the Youth IGFs, mainly from Asia Pacific and also the Germany IGF
will be speaking there.  I think for the very first time at the IGF, we
will be hearing the young people speaking on the main session.  Sorry, I'm
taking a lot of time, I know, but on Friday, there is also a critical
session I think for all the NRIs including the IGFs, at 10:15, it starts.
And I would really like all of you to be there and to speak concretely,
what do you want from the global IGF, from the global IGF community and how
can we support and help you.  Thank you.

>> LEE HIBBARD: Thank you.

>> Thank you, so we'll introduce now France, Uruguay and Chad to deliver
the message here.  So, Ted.  Yeah.

>> Hi, everyone.  It's a real pleasure to be here today.  My name is Ted.
I'm 23 years old French student and just like Sabrina, was one of the main
organizers of the Youth IGF meeting in France.  Unfortunately, there are
five other colleagues but they're not here today, so if they're watching,
hi, guys.  The meeting was an open debate which took place on the 16th of
November, and it gather around 30 people, young people, who showed a great
interest in internet governance.  Obviously, many issues where I've been --
-- have been highlighted and lots of ideas have emerged, but I will say
that the main aspect that didn't stop coming and coming in our discussion
were -- how can I say?  That we need a balance between what we can say
online, so the freedom of speech, and the misinformation that influences
people in a bad way.  Also, we say that we need, obviously, a real way to
protect our personal data.  We need to raise awareness in everywhere in the
society because we think knowing is at least half of the solution, knowing
the problem is at least half of the solution.  Thank you.

>> SABRINA ABUALHAIGA: Thank you, Ted.  Yeah.  Nicolai had the mic, so
Nicolai on the stage.

>> First of all, it's a pleasure to be herement I am Nicolai from Uruguay.
I work hears as a software -- here as a software engineer.  Was a main
organizer of the Uruguay meeting that was the 16th of November.  They touch
on issues of how the internet works, its ecosystem, then we presented
challenges, security, and challenge to human rights.  At the end, we
challenged solutions.  Some of the students' concerns were firstly how news
generate public opinion, who has the power to such, whether it's -- whether
a story is true or false.  People are not aware of the abilities of
security

protocols and the breaking of classic algorithms.  Finally, people are
exposed without a location. So, some of the suggestions were part of the
country should restrict.  We need to generate categorizations of articles.
Generate, for instance, an alarm, a kind of alarm that warns that it does
not have sufficient support from the sources.  Google can categorize this
information in some way. The solution proposed by students was to launch a
campaign nation-wide, well, to let people know about vulnerabilities and
possible attacks.  This should be basic education for children and other
refresh.  People must know the risks that run when exposing their data on
the internet with vulnerable algorithms.  Thank you so much.

>> SABRINA ABUALHAIGA: T. could you -- yeah, we have raised hand but just
give the mic to Abdir from Chad.

>> Thank you so much.  I am a member of the IGF Chad.  We launched on 12
November 2016.  We have more than 50 people, participants, come from
school, from University.  The term was, internet is our life.  Internet is
our life, and we discuss about topic about how to use internet and good
ways, and also child safety and how to bring to contribute in global
internet ecosystem. This objective was organized by the national IGF
chapter.  As you know, we need to incorporate in our education system ICT,
it's very important for young people to know ICT.  What is the internet.
How to use internet.  Most of them think that internet is Facebook and
Twitter, but internet is important.  You can find everything to contribute
in our status.  And because one of the goals of SDG is good education.
Good education is very, very important for us and I don't like that -- we
don't want that young people be behind the internet.  And also, we are not
so young to run in office, as you know.  The campaign is launched by united
nations forum.  We need to know, how to use internet.  What is
cybersecurity?  And we need to bring more people in the internet forum,
like ISOC is very important to us also.  And we need to access for the
people that would live in rural because it's very important, as I come from
developing country, it's very hard for us because we have only 10 percent
of people connected internet in Chad.  And yeah, I say that it's very
important that youth can contribute to global internet system. It's very
important for us, because as you know, we are 2 billion person, young
people in the word.  It's very important.  I can't say there's a number,
can show us everything.  Thank you so much.

>> LEE HIBBARD: Thank you so much.  Very good intervention.  We have
people's hands raised but I really want -- I will come to you in a second.
If you can be brief, I have remote -- remote first, then you come in after.
But we want the young people.  So please stay.  Thank you very much.  Are
we, Pakistan, please?  Pakistan, first.  And be brief, we really want to
get everybody's voice.  Thank you.

>> Hello?  Can you hear me?

>> LEE HIBBARD: Pakistan?  Talk to us.

>> Can you hear me?

>> LEE HIBBARD: Yes, but low.  Higher volume?

>> Pakistan: .  Hello.  I am Youth IGF ambassador from Pakistan.  Here in
Pakistan, we have many problems like the connectivity and openness issue,
especially the availability of data.  Because when we have to search for
some specific data, we always get an error saying, it is not available in
your country.  Then we also have the security and privacy issues here.  The
absence of any kind of code of conduct or regulator authority has provided
a vacuum for the extremist people to exploit people.  That's why Pakistan
government -- that's why Pakistani government has taken certain steps like
the prevention of internet crime in 2016, et cetera.  But what I need to
request you people is your collective and collaborative help from you so we
can collectively take steps to ensure secure interactions, peace, and
stability. As international threats like the cyber crime and cyber
terrorism are beyond the outreach of an individual.  So, what I wanted from
this platform is your help, so we can counter these transnational and help
make this world a better place.  Thank you.

>> LEE HIBBARD: Okay.  Thank you, Pakistan.  You were quite faint.  You
talked about connectivity, openness, searching for data, I didn't catch it
all.  Code of conduct.  We'll take good note of that and I hope we can have
replies.  I want to queue up this young gentleman here, first of all.

>> I received it so she couldn't present it by remote, so I will talk.
Read it.

>> LEE HIBBARD: Okay. Can we go to the young person first and then that one

>> Yeah.

>> LEE HIBBARD: Okay.  Please you, your name, where you're from, and brief.

>> I'm Floren, I'm from Austria.  I'm from the Youth IGF project that has
nothing to do with this one.  I wanted to ask about this project.  How did
you make your original selection of countries that are right now within
your Youth IGF project?  What is your plan on getting more countries,
especially in Europe, to a youth IGF project?  And especially in your set-
up process, try to reach out to existing structures of Youth IGF projects
in Europe and Africa.

>> Liana:

>> LEE HIBBARD: Thank you.  That's a good point.  And I'll call on Yuliya
from remote on that to talk about the selection of countries.  I think it's
probably open and those can join, so remote participation from Liberia and
Haiti.  Please, Sabrina, if you could be rather brief and come to the
floor.

>> SABRINA ABUALHAIGA: I will just read it briefly.  Hi, I am student in
computer science here in IT at ESIH, which is the best institute
recommended for knowledge in computer sciences in IT.  I am in charge of
the Youth IGF IT event on November 17, 2016.  In our discussion with the
youths in IT, we all agreed that internet infrastructure is very important
for social and economic growth in any developing countries.  Safe internet
access in vulnerable places like IT can contribute to the -- of young
people and women online.  We thank the leaders of the youth Internet
Governance Forum to help us.  Meanwhile, we suggest they make the internet
more accessible to everyone by making sure it's a safer area in the world.
So message from IT, and from Liberia.  I go forward.  Okay. Speaking point.
My name is -- Youth IGF Liberia ambassador.  My experience about Youth IGF
meeting in Liberia is that in less than three months I have reached four
major schools in the capital, and this month, I will be extended my
advocacy to Buchanan, the capital outside the capital.  As an ambassador
for the internet, I feel honored to dialogue with fellow IGF youths.  In
all of our 1,000 youths have been reached with the hedge of what are the
internet?  How has the internet helped them in school and what are the
challenges in accessing internet in Liberia, and what would a student want
to see in the future.  My message has been to explanation ideas on what the
internet is, how instrumental the internet is in national development and
what internet can do for students in schools.  What I would like to find
out is how to bring internet to schools in Liberia.

>> LEE HIBBARD: Thank you very much.  We have Russia on the line.  Can you
come in, please?  The Russian Federation.

>> Good day, ladies and gentlemen.  My name is Marguerita and I'm
ambassador of Youth IGF in Russia and one of the main coordinators of the
Youth IGF event in Russia which was first of November.  Of course,
everybody uses many applications for traveling, foods.  Some of them start
their own business and find the big problem.  The personal data protection.
One big thing is data just on the Russian servers.  It doesn't have a
problem if if your business is directed only to the Russian users but if
you would like to trade with Europe and buy service in European Union,
Russian market can be closed to you or you will have problems using your
data. Also have problems with fraud.  Happens to students, but it is a
problem with all of us and we think digital literacy is the reason.  In
conclusion, I think this organized was a very success because Russia is
large in Europe and our speed of the internet is comparable with many of
the European countries.  Currently, it's a successful fight against piracy
and online fraud which has an impact.  However, the security threat
remains, the solution of which has not been found.  Also, thanks to the
growing number of limiting the storage capability for various internet
service, compliance the development of small business and e-commerce.
Thank you.

>> LEE HIBBARD: Okay.  Thank you very much.  That's excellent.  Okay. We're
coming to the last eight minutes.  We have only one hour and we're going to
go to the floor now.  Before the very short wrap up by Julie at the end,
there are a finite number of issues, not an infinite number.  I think we
can circumscribe the issue and they need more information. I want to queue
up very briefly Nick, then Jaquelin, then Martin Fisher.  Please be brief
so we can get the young people's voices.  You're young, Nick, but not that
young.

>> I'm young but I'm getting older, unfortunately.  Yeah, just quickly.  So
I came to the Youth IGF session last year and I told you how disappointed I
was that at our UK IGF, we had a distinct lack of young people.  And the
Youth IGF was really great to speak to some people and I held some
conversations with people afterwards and I'm pleased to support that we're
working with child net, an organization in the UK who have a young leaders
program.  We were able to arrange a youth panel session at this year's UK
IGF and it was regarded as the best session that we had during that day.
So, that was really positive.  The issues that they were keenly talking
about were hate speech online and the challenges of dealing with that but
also sort of best practices that identified. And, also sort of use of
social media was a key thing.  But, what I really want to get out of this
is, first of all, just cover point, youth, you are not the future.  You are
the here and now.  And we would really like to continue to grow the youth
participation in IGF so I'd be pleased to hear about any initiatives that
you have planned for the UK but I'd like to bring them into our main event,
just continue to engage with all of you to figure out how we can bring
young people in.

>> LEE HIBBARD: Thank you.  European broadcasting union.  Quickly.  We're
running out of time.  Jacomo.  Really 30 seconds.  I know you can do it.

>> Yes.  Just listening to the questions we have heard as public servants
at least in Europe, we give some kind of answers to these sessions.  Just
want to remember free initiatives of what we're -- three initiatives what
we're doing.  One is the track, six divisions across Europe led by RTEC in
which we explain how it works, what kind of data are you giving when you
navigate on the internet.  Very, very useful. The second initiative is the
generation what where through the big data generated by users all across
the continent with one medium answering across 15 countries, you can
describe what is the expectation of the young people across all the
continent.  And we are now developing similar for Arab country in
cooperation with European Union, and very grateful for that. Last point I
want to make is literacy.  Media and digital literacy are crucial.  We can
try to tackle the issue today, but we need to plan to empower the citizen
because unfortunately or fortunately, the internet brings directly to them
so the media role of protecting the viewers and the citizen is not anymore
as it was in the past.  So now we need absolutely empowered people.

>> LEE HIBBARD: Thank you Jacomo.  Critical internet literacy.

>> Hello, Martin Fisher we are running also a European Youth IGF project
focusing on young people in Europe.  We have Youth IGFs in Netherlands,
Austr, Germany and turkey we are supporting.  Not going to go into too many
of the issues there.  The European dialogue on internet governance.  I
would like to extend one word to all the European based youth delegates I
hear online that are in all the different Youth IGFs present.  We always
like to see more active young people there.  Then I have a comment to the
lady in the first row, because it was a dialogue, after all.  You asked --
you had an appeal to the young people that they should engage more in the
consultations and contribute to the current discussions.  The last
discussion on copy right, or the last consultation had 80 different
questions in a rather legal framework terminology.  And, I tried to engage
young people, and these consultations are really not helping. So we want to
engage young people, I think we need to make a few more steps towards young
people in order to engage them.  Thank you.

>> LEE HIBBARD: No time.  No time.  Okay. Thank you, Martin.  We have a
young person.  We'll come to you in the blue jacket, please.  Very quickly.
We're running out of time.  Please, very quickly.  Please, very quickly.
Yes.  Oh.

>> May I go ahead?

>> LEE HIBBARD: Very briefly, yeah.

>> My name is Romper.  I'm from Portugal.  Also involved in a Youth IGF
program of some sort.  I'd like to point out that our youth age range is
kind of in a gray area.  That's why it's so important our involvement in
internet governance.  You think the younger generations that grew up with
technology in a digital age, and we can -- can't really forget that the
people involved now days in the Internet Governance didn't grow up in that
environment.  That's why it's so important that our voice is heard.  That's
why it's so important that we here so that we can connect those different
generations and contribute to a better internet.  Thank you.

>> LEE HIBBARD: Thank you very much.  Very briefly sir.  We have one
minute, please.

>> Thank you so much.  I'm from Beijing, China.  Now days, especially
today, I have met the Youth IGF.  It's a very good platform and a very good
project.  But it is also still very limited so my question is how we
encourage and help more region and countries to set up their Youth IGF.
Sometimes the young poem's power is not enough.  -- young people's power is
not enough.  They need a different generation.

>> LEE HIBBARD: Thank you so much for that.  We really are running out of
time.  Ten seconds please.

>> I just add on to Rohan.  I'm Hao Yen, the coordinator of IGF and we
organize the whole thing so I'm just wondering, we got organized for seven
years.  I'm happy to see there's more Y IGF in the region and also up here
now days.  But for the first step, I want to encourage everyone to think
about how we can work together on promoting the youth initiative everybody.
And I do think by some coalition and collaboration we can be stronger and
better on the whole initiative for encouraging youth.  Thank you.

>> LEE HIBBARD: Okay.  We're almost out of time.  We have a response from
Yuliya and then going to Julie.

>> YULIYA MORENETS: So message from Nigeria.  Hello, everyone.  I'm youth
ambassador to Nigeria.  Our message to the IGF is that as part of the
global to Nigeria youth would need empowerment about the ethics on the
internet use and have access to reliable and affordable means of internet
access. Thanks.

>> LEE HIBBARD: Thank you very much.  Now we have to wrap up.  We really
are at the end.  That was Yuliya.  Julie, I'm sorry.  The microphone for
Julie.  She's going to wrap up.  We're at the end of the session, so
please.

>> JULIE WARD: Sorry, I had a speech from the beginning and I was still
getting here from Brazillia but I want to tell you what I was doing in
Brazillia.  I was working with different people for indigenous land rights.
Young indigenous people were there wearing their own cultural costumes,
clothes, but they were also online.  They were using smartphones.  They
were communicating with people.  And I just wanted to say, that is a
message, isn't it?  There are people there who just like the people at
standing rock are fighting for their rights and they're doing it through
the internet, through media.  And what I'm hearing today is that the
internet has to be a force for good, a force for peace, a force to bring us
together, not to separate us through schemism and hate crime -- extremism
and hate crime and hate speech.  I think the diversity of the youth here is
actually the power that we need to hang on to so I had lots more things to
say, but for me, internet should be part of the intercultural dialogue that
helps us to build a safer, better, more peaceful world where we can
actually inspect each other and each other's differences but work together
so that we can live safely. Right.  I hope that's a good message (applause)

>> LEE HIBBARD: Okay. okay.  Thank you, Julie.  I'm sorry that the time is
up.  Thank you very much to all.  I'm sorry we only had one hour.  Thank
you to all.  If you want to carry on the dialogue we can, just outside this
room.  Cheers.  Thank you.  Thank you to all. (Session was concluded at
11:49 a.m. CST)

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INTERNET GOVERNANCE FORUM 2016 ENABLING INCLUSIVE AND SUSTAINABLE GROWTH
JALISCO, MEXICO

6 DECEMBER 2016 WORKSHOP 69 ICTS FOR SMART AND SUSTAINABLE CITY 12:00 P.M.
CST

>> Five.  4.  Three.  Two.  One.

>> Good morning.  Welcome to participate in the number 69 IGF workshop, ICT
Practice for Smart and Sustainable city.  A member of chairman association
for science and technology.  This is by internet associate of China.
Original integration Ministry.  As you may know, the concept of smart and
sustainable safety has been developed since 2009 with policies include
different wireless systems and Cloud computing enabling new approaches to
collaborative solutions for urban challenges.  The concept was extensively
developed since then and now we have seen urban structures including
significant Smart City elements have been implemented worldwide, and the
market has recently been booming.  We are eager to hear some words from
experts from across the country in today's workshop. With my great
pleasure, may I introduce to you our distinguished speaker, Mr. From
Netherlands.  He will talk about -- he will make online presentation.  Ms.
Ines from Tunis.  She will talk about ICT implementation for better
education in developed countries.  Ms. Xiaofeng Tao from industry. The
above speakers who will give presentations from community, government,
Civil Societies to express ideas from different stakeholders perspective
and discuss with, the audience.  And the remote moderator, the audience for
about 35 minutes. Finally, we will make conclusion.  And before I make the
presentation, I would like to introduce Ms. -- Mrs. Xin Wong.  He will
deliver our remark about safety on behalf of IFC.  Mr. Wong, please.
Ladies and gentlemen ladies and gentlemen (applause)

>> Excuse me.  Presentation.  Yes.  Thank you.  To make the first speaker
about technology more sustainable safety.  Actually, in this error, for
mobile technology, -- area for mobile technology, I have about 20 years of
experience in this area.  I come from Beijing University of post and
telecommunication.  I major -- safety, becoming smart, as well as
increasingly relying on different technologies to overcome our various
concerns.  So, what makes the Smart City smart, and what is a Smart City
about?  Based on the research in the year 2009, it says that Smart Cities
were used in intelligent architecture that corrects critical safety
infrastructure component such as real estate, transportation, healthcare,
education, emergency response, and.  Moreover, it is smart to consider
Smart City to stimulate the city's economy, improve our health, safety, as
well as education, and achieve the environmental sustainablity.  Throughout
all this process, I will say that intelligent services play a key role.  In
this slide, let me first propose our reason about Smart City, which is a
sustainable city of cost with trees along the road, and ecofriendly
vehicular and different kinds of smart element, including smart education,
smart emergency, smart care, smart opportunity, and so on.  So smart
function of Smart City.  I have shown in the previous slide can be divided
into three divisions.  Smart government, smart industry. For different
propose, and the most importantly, these functions are being by say smart
architecture which I will briefly example later.  The primary idea behind
them are different.  Smart government is basically the idea of the
information sharing and the business collaboration.  Smart industry is
based on the idea of transportation, economy, boosts of industry.  In fact,
with more forests, the related field of business clustered together.  The
costs of production may decline significantly.  Smart likelihood based on
the idea of IT and social livelihood, services where we'll see more
examples in the last slide. Here you can see are respect to idea, here we
introduce 15 user scenarios as an example.  The smart government of the
regions have, for example, public services, management, and so on.  In
order to improve the efficiency of a government services of administration
and enhance the government ability to respond to emergency and natural
disasters.  The smart industrial region has smart agriculture and so on.
Smart likelihood as such as application scenario in order to, for example,
achieve sustainable development for culture and education costs for
information technology. Historically, IBM was the first -- was one of the
first to elaborate the concept of Smart City.  And the smart planet.  In
the year 2009, the concept was extensively developed and being widely
accepted by all levels of governments in many countries.  You can see the
first left, Stockholm in Sweden, Hong Kong, Beijing, New York and different
cities worldwide.  The right figure, you can see different cities in China,
for example, Quanto, Wuhan is my home time Shanghai, and (Indiscernible).
Let us look, first look at the optimization urbanization race in China from
the 1990s to 2012.  You can see we can project in this rate to
approximately 70 percent by the year 2020.  Is okay?  Okay.  Consider that
China has 1.4 billion people.  Urbanization in China is large in scale and
the fast progressing.  In the meantime, we are also experiencing
industrialization and the informallization which cause lots of pressure to
the Chinese government but also create massive opportunities.  This
optimization background, move forward to be worldwide to Smart Cities.
(Screeching sound) I'm sorry?  So, Smart City is very important.  Okay.
Look at how we'll view a Smart City.  Smart City architecture can generally
be purchased in four layers.  The first layer, will give us a speech about
a smart layer.  The last layer, for example, anybody and mobile technology.
Internet and mobile technology is different.  Maybe combine and mobile
technology, called mobile internet.  But maybe want to combine several
things together. For platform layer, for example, public information
platform, Cloud services platform, and some other platforms.  For
application layer, you can see smart government, smart industry, smart
livelihood and others. From this slide you can see, major communication and
mobile technology, you can see the first generation for mobile
communication is about in 1980's.  And second in 1,990s.  And in the year
2010, we used the data is more than 100 per second 6,789 sometimes maybe
several hundred per second.  We viewed in the year 2009, we saw 1.5 per
second for laboratory.  The data is about 13.5 TB per second, which is 135
times the of current 4G so the debt rate is much higher to others. To cope
with faster development of mobile technology, mobile carriers themselves
are faster in terms of screen size, processor speed, and storage and
capacity.  Now, they are not only communication devices but also supporting
different type of services.  There are two effects you may find -- two
facts you may find interesting.  The first is you can see smartphone is
equivalent to a PC produced eight years ago.  For example, a PC built in
2001, smartphone the same.  Standard REM, almost the same.  Storage and
capacity, almost the same.  And the display, almost the same. So the second
fact you can see a sentiment of smartphone and tablet PC, you can see the
PC in the year 2015, if it was reported that for surer than half of --
fewer than half of new internet users access the web with this top, you
see.  Smartphone was instead their first devices of choice.  All these
process in the mobile industry provide firm support for building smart and
sustainable city.  Let us see three examples that adopt Smart City concept
and use mobile technology.  Each come from one of the regions.  From smart
government to smart livelihood.  In the year 2014, some were used only
because games were held from 16 to 28 August in China.  Games will
coordinate and emerging across by our game time commander information
systems is, youths, education providing services.  Founding seats and
replying to some requirement about the packing, for example, and even
information, et cetera.  The games main operation center was praised by
jack Gregor, a chairman of IOC, as the best main operations center.  4.0,
as you may know, industry 4.0 is the current trend of manufacturer.  With
medical technologies and it is the key symbol to solidify the production
process as well as increasing the productivity.  In the year 2015, our
government has launched tone years national plan, in China 25 to enhance
the manufacturer industry.  And in this time, maybe we use.  This slide
shows us something about trees, and which tables supply chain. And this is
about food safety.  And which tables attack with tracing ID.  Printed, so
that the consumer can use this ID information to trace back the supply
chain so there are more ABP, telephone -- mobile, telephone and website.
And finally for our last step, first one, policy aspect.  Policy maker play
a very important role in the smart safety development.  Also, more than 300
cities in China has initiate Smart City project where we're still
inspecting the figure to keep engrossing in the next few years.  Second,
majority investment is paid constructing buildings accounting for about 73
percent for total investment compared to 10 percent of software services
investment.  Software services, management and operator of buildings. So, I
think it's time to upgrade our software to keep up with construction speed.
So maybe we should do something in this area.  So, this all about my point
of view about Smart City.  Thank you very much (applause) Second, I would
like to invite Jaap Haenen.  He is CIO and member of the Board of Directors
of the city and has been appointed in 2011 has the smartest region in the
world.  And is known for the innovations and the age of the technology and
design.  The city currently instrumental on the first levels with employing
big data and technology to solve social problems.  So excuse me, how to
make the presentation for online presentation?  Yeah.  --

>> What trying to do?

>> Online.

>> Can you hear me?

>> Hello?  Mr. Haenen?

>> JAAP HAENEN: Okay.  The first slide is about -- thank you very much for
having me here.  My name is Jaap Haenen and I'm the CIO and member of the
Board of Directors of the municipality of Ionhoven.  Local government can
and should play a role when it comes to the use and technology of data in
order to enhance the well being of citizens.  Next slide, please.

>> Please tell me page number.

>> JAAP HAENEN: Sorry?

>> Please tell me the page number.  Page number.

>> JAAP HAENEN: I can't hear you.  The idea of Ionhoven is the fifth city
in the Netherlands situated in the southeast of the country and
accompanying about a hundred million residentses.  You have -- you have to
wait with the slides because you're too fast.  Do you hear me?  I'm sorry.
Can you hear me?  We are achieving this participation by keeping our city
as a testing ground to all parties that want to experiment with new
technology for the good of the idea and well being of the citizens.  Let me
show a few examples.  The next slide, please.  Yes, this is a street full
of bars and pubs in the heart of Antoven.  Incidents sometimes happen.  We
experiment on how to improve the safety and atmosphere.  For example, can
we use a different color of light to tame aggression, or can we prevent a
fight from starting by using light.  All data is fully anomynized so we use
the light as an intervention.  Next slide, please. Due to close cooperation
with Phillips, light is in the DNA of our city.  We are installing a smart
light grid all over the city based on the public lighting infrastructure.
In the coming five years, we will have our partners experiment in five
areas of the city with how to use new technologies to improve living
conditions for and in cooperation together with the citizens in these
areas.  Next slide, please. This is Arias, a citizen's initiative to
monitor air quality and fight pollution.  They install highly precise air
quality sensors and even give them to people.  Airiua analyzes air quality
data and takes initiative to improve it.  While working together in a
number of experiments, for example, how to manage traffic to reduce
pollution.  Next slide, please. And this is Tribesh where Phillips factory
used to be.  Now it's a lively district full of young entrepreneurs, cafes
and where new ideas are born.  Tribesh is part of the European cooperation
project where this community is called to develop smart solutions for the
area.  Next slide, please. Together with our partners, we need to safe
guard public interests, stimulate economic development and new ecosystem.
Framed developments to help support the existing organic approach, and we
also need to be ready for the future, ready for change it may bring.  Next
slide, please. First of all, we need to make sure that data collected in a
public space is used for the public goods.  Data plays a vital role in the
transition towards a smart society.  We believe that if an open
multipurpose platform is applied in a public domain, data can empower
people to become active producer of societial and to ensure a strong
foundation on which to build the smart society, we need to regular late at
different levels. This is why Eindhoven has developed different ways to
deal with data in the public domain.  Next slide, please.  It's crucial
that on a local level, the rules of the game for new technology in the
public space are designed in a way that facilitate innovation to the
maximum possible extent.  We need to afford data and technical discourage
business models in the space that are based on monopolizing or selling
citizen's data.  This is why we developed the iOT charter you see now.  We
did it together with big and small companies, Universities, and other
government organizations.  This charter is the basis for all future smart
city developments.  Next slide, please. The charter is just the beginning
of an open conversation we constantly have as a local government with all
parties enforced in the development of smart society.  We are actively
testing our innovative policies, working out detailed specification and
setting them into practice.  We are also working on establishing innovative
policies nation-wide in the Netherlands and in the European Union.  For
example, by the north society forum with our team in Brussels working
together with other cities in Europe.  Next slide, please.

the smart society will not happen by itself.  Municipalities, institutions,
companies and engaged citizens Ned to be informed and inspired to
participate.  At the yearly light fest I feel in Eindhoven, we want to be
an inclusive city.  This year, 730 people visited the festival in one week.
We invite you to join us on this journey and share in our searches.  Thank
you.  -- success.  Thank you.  This was my presentation.

>> Thank you. (applause)

>> Thank you. (speaking non English language)

>> Next I will invite Ines.  Internet policy analyst with ISOC and teacher,
and she has great experience in the implementation of government policies
and the digital economy with sustainable develop framework.  Ms. Ines, you
have the floor.

>> INES HFAIEDH: Okay.  Good morning, everyone. (speaking non English
language) Welcome to our workshop.  Whether you are following us remotely
or in person, welcome.  I'm Ines Hfaiedh.  I'm a teacher in Africa.  I
having working in that field for the past six years.  I was really
interested in participating in this workshop because I really felt that
smart and sustainable cities are a great thinking, but how can we achieve
that without investing in the persons?  Without investing in education?  In
teachers?  And how to prepare people who can use and take advantage of
those sustainable cities.  Next slide, please. Basically, today, I'll be
speaking, I'll be having two parts.  The first part will be dealing with,
why invest in education for developing countries?  Why it has become vital.
And the second part is to show how ICTs, Internet and Communication
technologies support innovation and how investing in ICTs is a value chain
and this can fuel the developing countries, the overall performance like at
the economic, social, and et cetera levels.  Next slide, please. Okay. So
why is innovation and education now urgent for developing countries?  Okay.
Some teachers like myself in Tunisia, it's a developing country, of course.
We opt foreign he violation but this, fortunately -- opt for innovation,
but this, unfortunately, so far comes from pedagigical.  We don't have
government support or institutional support.  We don't really have the
facilities.  We're just making it happen on a daily basis.  It's not easy,
but we make it happen.  So far, in most developing countries, we don't have
any financial or technical supports.  Next slide, please.  Okay. That's a
very, very interesting figure and it has to do with the global learning
crisis and the expected learning outcomes in 2030.  So here, we have the
lough income countries.  So I -- the low income countries.  By 2030, 69
percent will not learn basic primary level skills.  69 percent.  In middle
income countries, 21 percent will not have basic primary levels and 49
percent will learn minimum secondary level skills. In high income and
developed countries, 70 percent by 2030 will learn minimum secondary level
skills.  Next slide.  So what do we expect when we implement ICTs in
education?  We expect that in countries like Tunisia we can create a black
board which would facilitate for teachers the learn and teaching process.
It's a platform for every school and University.  We are expected as a
teacher to teach 21st century skills.  What do I mean by that?  Higher
order thinking, problem solving, cooperation, to be ready to be global
citizens because the world is really advancing at very, very fast pace.  We
are expected to follow international standards of education.  And if you
allow me, those international standards of education, we feel that the
difference in those standards between courts is becoming less important but
it is still persistent.  And I come from Africa, and I can tell that the
standards are still very -- we're not keeping up.  ICTs technologies
facilitate the personalization and individualization of learning and I'll
be explaining that on another slide. With we teach IT skills, we are
helping our students to become IT -- to be ready for the IT oriented jobs
and the new job markets and also we can work on books like national
educational sources in local languages for local context.  And also, when
we are expected to create indexes and indicators to assess the overall
performance so this creates at the local and international level, this
creates some competition but also helps us in developing the standards.
Next slide, please.  Okay. Another very interesting figure, so, for each
one dollar invested in an additional year of schooling, in low income
countries, the earning benefits would be five dollars.  In lower middle
income, it would be three dollars.  And in upper middle income, it would be
one dollar.  So, a dollar invested in an additional year of schooling
generates ten dollars in benefits in low income countries.  Maybe some
people would say, what is the ten dollars?  Ten dollars?  Some developing
countries is a lot of money, so it makes a difference.  Okay. Okay. The
second part is, how technologies support the innovation process and how it
becomes a value chain.  Next slide. Okay. So, technologies.  As a teacher,
I have noticed that technologies for my students who are, most of them, all
of us, we are becoming IT oriented and interested on Facebook, et cetera,
social media.  So technologies have restored curiosity to education.  Like
we take our students on journeys through time and space, movies, videos,
audio technology.  This is priceless for students.  Especially that I teach
at a country side area.  Like when I talk about some music, some video,
some movie.  When I don't have it to show it to my students, it's just
static.  There is nothing that happens.  The learn asking not take place at
all.  We bring standard movement to the static textbook lessons.  This
helps us overcome the geographical problems.  Especially there are problems
for gender issues shall especially for women to join schools.  We eliminate
the artificial boundaries between schools and the outside world and this
helps us in promoting the global citizenship concept in our students.  Next
slide.  Okay. So the Modus Operandi.  First we personalize the learning
experience in that we tailor lessons and feedback to our students.  We
deliver feedback rapidly and effectively.  Like, for example, the student
can do the homework at night and send you his homework the same night and
you could give him the feedback rapidly and in effective way, you target,
especially the weaknesses.  And as the next day, I know as a teacher what
are the weaknesses of my students so I can focus on those weaknesses and
change the whole lesson.  So it's not pointless.  It's going to be, I will
have my target points to focus on. Also the technology are changing our
teaching models like blended technology or the flipped classroom.  The
flipped classroom means most of the learning happens outside the classroom.
It happens at home.  Like you have the resources and you focus on those
resources and you start using your brains and you start like higher
thinking.  In the classroom, we use the classroom actually for discussion,
for practice, et cetera.  Also it helps in the teacher development because
I can go on any other platform or came bridge for students and check those
resources and develop and chick the star teachers and I can learn a lot
from them.  So technologies that support the technology.  The opening
resources are priceless for us because it not only helps the students but
they develop so much that they also are for us as teachers and we can build
the whole lesson around those open educational resources.  Now also in
Tunisia, we have full textbooks free online. Our students, especially from
lower background or who have limited financial resources, they can have the
free textbooks.  Also we can update the information online versus a
national strategy.  In Tunisia, we have been the same textbooks.  We ask on
yearly basis for reform and we still cannot have reform on program.  So the
road map.  We can have the academia, the private sector, the Ministries,
the public institutions, et cetera.  And it has to be as inclusive as
possible.  Next step.  The mechanism of support of the projects so we have
the regulation and legal aspects of the best policy but if we don't have
the regulation and best ideas, if we don't have the ICT legal framework.
We need the consistency.  If a teacher, if he or she does not have the
skills to use them, it's pointless, absolutely pointless.  M-hmm.  Next.
And last but not least, the digital trust, the national response plan in
case of threat to cybersecurity is very, very important.  Next.  So
finally, we need to invest in people.  This is my point.  The most
important point of this presentation, we must invest in people first and
education.  We must prepare those people to the sustainable and Smart
Cities.  We must raise the public awareness. We must involve the youth, and
largely stakeholders discussion.  We must have the policy foundation, of
course, and little by little, it's not easy.  They can be adopted and also
invest in education as a value chain.  This is my point.  Next slide,
please. Okay. So I would like to finish with this wonderful, wonderful
quote from Nelson Mandela. "education is the most powerful weapon which you
can use to change the world." Okay. Thank you very much.  I hope you
enjoyed it.

>> Okay.  Our last speaker, Ms. Han.  Electronic engineer from USC,
California.  Used to serve as program officer in ICC.  Regional development
and reform commission of China.

>> Is okay?  You have the floor, please.

>> Thank you Professor Tao and thank you for inviting me to this workshop.
This is -- you can call me Polo.  Today I would like to talk about adopting
the network and introduce why international standards jointly approved by
IEC and IEEE.  Smart City is a password written here -- as new technologies
such as internet and ethics are being deployed, the future of Smart City is
quite near.  Something life new styles of life. Meanwhile, governments also
launched series of policies to encourage the opportunity for Smart City.
We can see from the page in a take China for example, there are some great
goals and huge financial support, for Beijing, those cities put forward
their own planning for the development of smart city.  And there are
different layers of concept for smart city.  Smart City as well as smart
management at the very foundation for it.  When to comes to smart
management as it relates to smart home, smart community, and also smart
efficient system within it.  Smart leverage has a broader range and covers
that are involved with our daily life.  Smart industry has the highest
diversity, and where future Smart City burst from in the coming decades.
However, before taking the routes, there are still some problems and here
are two of the technical problems we're facing.  The first one as it
relates to the compatibility of database, and the second one is the
compatibility of industrial.  One way to solve this problem of
communication and storage standard approved by IEC and IEEE.  These
standards developed jointly by group and top University.  Here is our
solution.  Normally, traditional management is different vertical lock on
different systems that the last parts.  It's hard for them to scale or
communicate with each other.  However, through horizontal cooperation like
the red part of the page, a platform with open interface allows different
areas to communicate with each other.  Standard 18,880 is based on multiple
protocol interoperability of smart gateway and is also compatible with
traditional industrial bus.  The goal of these standards is be secure, be
effective, be unified, and be open.  The standard was last year in 2015.
It was based on HTTP defining communication hoed and also standardized
communication interface.  It's comparable with different industrial buckets
under the gateway layer and it's changing and restoring data through our
unified mode.  These standards make it possible to build a data sharing
platform for big data mining for the future.  In fact, standards 18,880 is
developed from a protocol cluster which is IEEE1888.  We can see from the
page that the standard for control and management.  Point two is for
network convergence.  Point three is for communication security and point
four for different applications and scenarios of smart home.  There are
many more in these IEEE family tree. similar as traditional internet
structures, there are four layers for a Smart City.  The standards serve
above the transport layer and it defines how data is stored in the
platform.  We can see from the map that it deployed many in the identity.
The data we aim to analyze is mainly about energy data of water,
electricity, heat and gas.  Through the platform operation is able to
access how it works operates all over the city at any time therefore to
build an integrated command system to control and manage the resources and
to reacts to emergency quickly.  Here is a larger -- the left column of
analysis of central data and the red column is the data mining of the
management platform and they share data with a unified form within the
database.  Okay.  Here is another you heard about. People who came from the
last meeting must remember this vigorous city.  Whether they significantly
damage a city's economic development and where the risk control, it's very
important to work for the local federal government -- all over you can see
from the map.  Hire is one example how the sensory in different heights
that can capture the data of wind temperature, humidity and also pressure.
Finally the road map of the ecosystem of the Cloud platform for the Smart
City. We can see the development of Smart City relates to multistakeholders
and our future life smart city will be very different from how leave now
since the data is shared on the Cloud form.  The Cloud services improve
each other to make the city smarter.  I don't know if people also getting
smarter because of this, although I really doubt that.  But let's look
forward to it.  Thank you (applause)

>> It's time for Q and A.

>> My name is Ian Fisher.  I'm from BCS in UK and I have a question for
Jaap if he's still on.  I presume he is.

>> No.

>> No he's not?  Well, maybe the others might want to consider.  I was
interested in an important thing for Smart Cities in what criteria they
used in Eindhoven to put privacy first in the use of data from sensors in
the city.  Fortunately, he's not on so he can't answer that question
himself, but you may wish to consider it between the panel.

>> Hello, I am from the republic.  I just have two comments.  One on Smart
City.  We have best practices.  In capital of the republic we've been
trying to launch Smart City for the past few years but the miff interior,
the police is a a conflict of interest.  Police is not really interested in
Smart City because it would mean they had less jobs or less bribes to take
and now we are revisiting and the city council is going to be involved in
implementing project. Other comment on presentation.  We wanted to bring
smart technologies to schools, but what happened is that schools will
receive equipment, computers, but children will not able to use them
because teachers think that it's very expensive equipment and children will
break them so they lock up the classrooms.  And that was also kind of bad
practice.  Thank you.

>> INES HFAIEDH: Hello.  Thank you very much for your -- for talking about
this because we had exactly same issue in Tunisia and it's a rural area
where I teach so we have the equipment but the problem is that our students
had the equipment at high school but most of them have never, ever used a
computer.  Also some teachers did not have the training to use technology
so also at our school we had to do that as well and also we have a very,
very huge problem with the internet coverage and sometimes we don't even
have electricity so I know how it feels in rural areas so I feel that even
sometimes we can do a lot of things offline, especially when you have the
software, program, we can do that offline and teach a lot of that.  So as
teachers, we are made of something that makes us always creative and always
find solutions and always thinking in the toughest conditions.  Thank you
very much.

>> Hi.  I just want to talk about something.  He said that the policeman
didn't like the idea of Smart City.  It's because, I mean, we have
artificial intelligence also and this means that it's going to come in
massive wave of unemployment, like not only China but around the world.  So
I was wondering if you also have a plan or have talked about what are you
going to do with all these people that are going to lose their jobs because
for me, it's going to happen.  Thanks.

>> While I think although from our city it's a hot topic this year and
we'll really take a long time to achieve what we are thinking about.  And I
think we always face the problem that whenever there is innovation that
happens and there is account but I think with the development of
technologies, there will be new provisions to solve the problem.  Yes, for
making a Smart City, maybe the first important task for us is to choose a
certain aspect, choose that it's very important.  Thank you.

>> Thank you.  I come from Sweden and thank you for a lot of interesting
presentations.  I want to come back to the very first one that was made in
Chinese by Mr. -- I think.  It's interesting to hear that the Chinese
government is it measuring, the presentation includes seven measures or
indexes for Smart City and I wanted to know if the Chinese government also
has set up objectives or goals for those measurements.  Thank you.

>> Maybe I have slides about the tactic of our government.  In the year
2020, maybe 70 percent increasement from now.  70 percent increasement.
Maybe.  I have a slide about target, but I'm not quite sure.  Maybe the
lumber should be increased by about 30 percent.  Thank you.

>> We have eight kinds of parameters and the government wants to test
current smart cities.  Currently, maybe 500 to 700.  The government wants
to develop the city with eight kinds of parameters.  Thank you.

>> Yeah.  One of the Smart Cities and I'm actually quite interested how you
define those eight parameters that you mentioned.  Can you elaborate a
little bit?  Since I'm quite interested to know how you measure the Smart
City can be smart.  Yeah.

(speaking non English language)

>> Eight kinds of parameters.  The first one is for several people.  More
accurate solution for the government.  The parameter is livelihood.  --
third parameter is livelihood.  The fourth parameter is smart devices,
including wide band access.  The fifth, information, resources sharing.
Openness.  Network security including network security management and the
data security.  Form and creation and experiments of the citizen.

>> Question from remote participant.

>> Okay.  Well, thank you so much.  Can you hear me?  Excuse me.  Hello?
Hello?  Professor, do you hear me?  Can you hear me?

>> Yeah, please introduce your name and organization and question.

>> Okay.  Yeah.  I'm Somaya.  I'm from Iran.  I'm studying Beijing and
western communication in China.  Thank you so much for this interesting
presentation.  My question is about air pollution.  As you know, air
pollution is the big issue in the whole world and actually in China at one
of the biggest China in the whole world.  So I want to know about, is there
any implementation from China's government for this issue.  Because I think
inclusion is, it's very important, but I think it's not mentioned a lot
about this key word in the smart city platform.  So, I want to know more
about these things.  Is there any implementation in this part or not?
Thank you so much.

>> Thank you.

>> You're welcome.

>> Well, thank you for your question.  The monitoring for air pollution is
definitely our next move.  Currently, our standards focus on the energy
network solution.  And air pollution for our next move, we're going to
physical sites around the city and which can can capture the data of air
pollution and set alarm about those datas to indicate which area has more
severe problem and to find out the source of the problem.  That's currently
on our focus on the energy network.  Thank you.

>> Yeah, I was going to comment also on implementation.  I was thinking the
first one in the near future, just as I said, IOT, maybe smart kinds of,
maybe can use this kind of technology.  And second, of course, let me
introduce with you some protocol, maybe.  Okay. Thank you.  More questions?

>> Yeah, thank you.

>> Okay.  Thank you.

>> Thank you.

>> So, any questions?

>> So, I have a question.

>> Yes?

>> So, you're a teacher.  For middle school or junior school?  What kind of
school?

>> INES HFAIEDH: I'm a teacher at high school.

>> High school?

>> INES HFAIEDH: M-hmm.

>> Okay. so in your school, how many students?  Interested in book,
courses.

>> INES HFAIEDH: I think that most of our students are now technology-
oriented and they really prefer a slide or something they see on a screen
rather than a page or paper.  They are becoming a bit allergic to papers.
So that's why, I think that most of our students that would be interested
in that.  So, that's why technically I am working the Ministry of Education
but I am technically also affiliated with the Technology ICCs in Tunisia so
it's a huge project and I hope we will have the political incentive as well
as the technical and financial facilities to start a MUK but it's really
important for me to stress that MUKs should not be taken from outside of
the country.  It should be adapted to the context, and why not, in the
local languages.  It could be really more effective in the teaching and
learning process, and I think it's -- this is the future.  Open educational
resources are the future in our countries.  Thank you very much for the
question.

>> Thank you very much.

>> Okay. Any more questions?  We still have several minutes.  Okay.
Please.

>> Okay.  Thank you.  West Africa.  And have just -- I want to comment the
presentation.  First of all, I want to congratulate you for the topics
because the topic of Smart Cities is aban important topic.  And Africa, our
government is involved in this project.  I know China is the first person
to accompany this kind of project.  I wanted to meant about the last
present -- comment about the last presentation.  At the end of his
presentation, he said something like smart cities will train to have
people, not sure.  Smart Cities will train to have people as smart as the
cities.  It's true that this is possible only through presentation.  That's
why the presentation of my sister, Ines, is very important.  I think when
people really educated, they will behave as a smart people, too.  And my
request would be to have a copy of your presentations and to go through
more deeply and comment.  Thank you.

>> Thank you.  You want to say something about your slides?

>> Well, thank you for your comments.  I think that's a good question.
Every time people have some technology innovation, see our recognition of
human, like a huge upgrades like when people invent the printing
technology.  So maybe in the first several years, that people think if you
cannot like hand copy something, you are not smart as before.  But later
the recognition upgrades and the people won't think that anymore.  So I
think the Smart City is like the new life and we can look forward to that
which it leads us to.  Thank you.

>> Thank you.  More questions from?

>> I have a question.

>> Lease.

>> Hello.

>> Please tell me your name, organization, and question.

>> Okay.  I'm Judy.  I'm from International Urban Construction Consulting
Institute.  My major now is about Smart City.  And could you hear me
clearly?

>> Yes.

>> Okay.  Great.  My question is about in the workshop, many ICTs has been
discussed, right?  Like internet allocation and broadband communication
technology and Cloud and I wonder, like, your speakers, your distinguished
speakers are the expert on Smart City so what would you think, which ICTs
or related are essential for us to start our Smart City construction
because we think Smart City is just in the beginning for our -- some places
has been smart, but others on the way and another question how could
especially developing countries develop these essential SEPs to behalf
their w -- to behalf their way to the Smart City-pave their way to the
smart city to make the city smart and sustainable.

>> Well, I cannot speak for all the technical community but our work from
the internet infrastructure and I can say that especially for our
developing countries it's very crucial to promote the deployment of IPV6.
If in the future we're going to have some technical innovation.  It's very
critical that everyone have unique IP address and development of IPV6 is
not that in developing countries.  We are just back from India, and they
made a very remarkable progress in the promotion which goes from one person
to ten persons within ten months.  And I think that's a good example for
the developing countries and I think that's a good example for the
developing countries to promote the infrastructure.  Thank you.

>> You use IPV technology for your teaching?  Maybe you would prefer
choosing technology in your teaching.

>> INES HFAIEDH: Technologies, our students love their smartphones.  We try
to personallalize the experience.  -- personalize the experience.  I can
give you an example, in order to practice comments and directions, et
cetera, and please those kind of words with my students.  For example, I
gave them the task of opening their smartphones and using Google Maps and
we went to a very different country.  We went to Paris and I told them that
you are a tourist and you would like to go to the Eiffel Tower and these
kinds of practice and using their phones and using technologies make our
students super excited.  That's why, for example, also we had to practice
the time and recovery related to flying and traveling.  I gave them the
website that I would not cite right now, but I gave them a website and I
told them, you are a travel agent and you're going to organize a whole trip
with your friends to a very distinguished speaker guest who's coming to
your country. So, these kind of exercises and practices, they are really
motivating.  They are really interactive and motivating to our students and
this is what we are trying to create in our classrooms.  Thank you.

>> Thank you.  Okay. So I want to make a conclusion.  Mainly address some
policy and status of current Chinese Smart Cities.  I and Mr. Chon merely
addressed some technologies but from my point of view, maybe technology and
many addressed technology about HOE technology.  And from Ines, gave us
something about ICT implementation in education.  And Mr. Jaap Haenen is
our CIO in Eindhoven.  So, I think Smart City is very hot topic.  Maybe,
for example, in China, usually we use some technology for Smart City
construction.  Smart City maybe is a long way to go.  So, we should do
something for

technologies and policy, maybe some training for a Smart City.  So just as
I said, we still have a long way to go.  So thank all our speakers to share
experiments for us and thank all audience for your participation.  Thank
you.  We close our session.  Thank you very much.

(applause)

(Session was concluded at 1:30 p.m. CST)

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