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INTERNET GOVERNANCE FORUM 2016 ENABLING INCLUSIVE AND SUSTAINABLE GROWTH
JALISCO, MEXICO

9 DECEMBER 2016 WORKSHOP 212 PROMOTING INNOVATION AND ENTREPRENEURSHIP IN
THE GLOBAL SOUTH 9:00 A.M.

>> One minute for session.

>> Good morning, everyone.  And welcome to workshop 212 on promoting
innovation entrepreneurship in the global south.  Good morning to all of us
huer in the room.  We know it's a bit small, but we like this environment.
We think it will make us have very productive conversations, and also,
pleasant good morning to our online viewers.  My name is Cevin Smith.  I
work with LACNIC and I'll be your moderator for this conversation. To start
out the concept, I think there are two simple concepts we must keep in mind
when we're thinking about innovation and entrepreneurship and these
essential concepts really deal with questions of value and risk.  When we
talk about value, for instance, does passion about an idea suffice? Do our
innovators and entrepreneurs understand value, do they fully grasp the
environments?  And then also in the question of risks.  What we really want
to find out is, how do you manage risks for things that haven't been done
before?  Things without precedent? I think these are some of the critical
concepts we have to keep in mind and these distinguished concepts of
innovation and entrepreneurship from regular business activity, and of
course at this workshop, we are very interested in ICT enabled, we are
talking about how the internet economy can help us meet some SDGs in our
country and the global south. And the global south in itself isn't a
concept that we have put without coincidence.  The global south really
positions us to not really accept settled categories of the definitions of
innovation systems.  It takes, for example, it takes into consideration
what we would call non traditional sources of information.  The value of
traditional knowledge, and how these plays in innovations within this
global south.  So without further ado, we'll go into today's session.
We'll furs start with a number of opening remarks from some very
distinguished speakers we have wast today, and then we're going to move
into a group discussion on two particular questions. The first question
deals with the challenges and opportunities for innovation and
entrepreneurship in the global south, and then the second question really
deals about the success cases that we have call worked on or that we -- we
have all worked on or that we know of and we'll try and share some of those
lessons among us.  At this point in time, I will call on my panelist to my
left, Joyce.  Hi, Joyce.  To please get us started with some reflections.

>> JOYCE DOGNIEZ: Good morning, everyone.  My name is Joyce Dogniez.  I'm
with Internet Society.  I'm senior director of Global Engagements with
Internet Society, and first of all, thank you for inviting me here.  And on
this very important topic.  It's a topic that is very close to the heart of
the Internet Society as we think that obviously without innovation, we
would not be here, talking about the n internet. So, we continued in that
spirit, and we still continue in that spirit in promoting innovation and
entrepreneurship to make sure the next big thing is coming out there as
well.  So I just want to touch on a couple of things around the topics.  I
think maybe a bit of a higher level to start out with before we dive into
the more concrete discussions.  So what we're seeing that entrepreneurship
is really surging in the developing countries.  In India, we see major sort
of ecosystems.  In New Dehli and Balgalor, we see that the start-ups having
raising 1.5 billion in funding in 2016, only for their start-ups.  Sao
Paolo marks top 20 where we see more than 1,500 activists in the city
alone.  Nairobi, as y'all probably well know is the home of leading African
start-ups.  I'm only naming a few.  I know there's many more, but we'll go
into that. So, what we see that if local entrepreneurs develop new business
solutions that address local demands, that is really, really key.  So, for
example, if you look at Kenya, the solar energy system is really addressing
an important energy issue at local level.  So they really looked at finding
solutions for something that was real in their own local environment. These
ventures are only possible thanks to the internet now so I think that's an
important thing to keep in mind.  What we've seen is that if you leave
access to an open, trusted internet, you can remove barriers to
entrepreneurship and create new opportunities in different ways for
entrepreneurship and innovation.  I'll just say, one thing you can do when
going to the internet, you don't really have to ask anyone for permission
to start your business.  You can just go ahead.  You can just start.
There's another range of issues we will dive into, but you can just use the
internet to start innovating. So, when you look at how the more physical
environment works in terms of start-ups and I just wanted to make that
parallel, when you look at the Silicon Valleys, and I need to be careful
what I say, because we have some people in the room who are kind of there.
So, the key in the hubs there in the ICT clusters is that you have access
to three main things.  One is knowledge, educational research, basically
through the Universities that are in around or in the ICT cluster. You have
access to input, so you have an easy -- I wouldn't say it's easy, but you
have at least access to potential funding.  And you have a whole range of
other people that are living that same enthusiasm for innovation that are
struggling potentially with the same issues so you can share, you can share
skills as well.  So there's a pool of people you can actually tap into.
Now, we all know the stories of Steve Jobs and Facebook, I won't go there.
But we also know the stories of people like Eric Hersman, like Juliana
Rutledge.  I'm probably saying their names really wrong.  Some of the
founders of Ushahidi.  There's many success stories we know of but there's
many stories we don't know of. I'll pick one because I went to see them
last month in Buenos Airer and it's the story of some visually impaired
people who started digi tizing libraries.  They used the internet, said we
want to share internet with people who have the same disabilities as we
have.  They used the internet for funding, to create their idea, share
their idea, and they now have more than 8,000 visually impaired people
using their libraries.  They just won a prize from UNESCO.  There's many
stories out there.  I could go on for a couple of hours, which is not the
purpose of this session, but I think it's important we hear those kind of
stories from all of you as well. What we've seen with those stories is
those ventures were essentially created online, as I said, so they're not
bound to a geographical ICT cluster, so they're not bound to a place.  So
what we've seen is that the internet is not only boosting the
entrepreneurship but also removing some barriers, breaking some barriers,
geographical barriers, but also social barriers, allows people to go beyond
their social environments and potentially social limitations as well.  So
ideally we would like to translate the model of the geographical ICT
clusters to the online model.  We see that we still have some barriers. The
first barrier is obviously connectivity so we need to continue our effort
to connect.  The next billion, but more the last billion, I would say
because those are the most difficult ones to connect so we need to continue
in our efforts to connecting the unconnected.  In terms of knowledge, to
make the parallel there, yes, you have, through the internet, potentially
access to information, to knowledge, to research, but you still have to
train the people on how to use the tool.  You still need to train the
people on how to use the internet to make the most out of it, so how can
they actually use the internet to become innovate.  Do they have the
digital skills?  Are they digitally literate?  Are some of the questions
you need to ask. So to do the research as well, you need relevant local
content in relevant local languages.  In many cases, that is an issue.  So,
if you want to start a start-up in rural, I would say even Flanders, I'm
going to take a place in Belgium, people tend to speak the national
language but not always so we need to make sure the information is
available in the local language that is relevant for them to solve their
issues.

if we then look at the input, we know from research that cash flow is most
of the time, the biggest challenge for entrepreneurs.  Thanks to the
internet, we've seen that a lot of entrepreneurs manage to raise money
through platforms and just fundraising tools that define online, -- that
you find online, but there's still a lot of limitations on efficient
funding mechanisms for start-ups so I'd love to hear more about that from
you as well.  So in terms of assistance, yes, you do have access to the
world through the internet but only to as many people actually are online
and are using the internet.  So, you still see now that yes, people are
using the internet and yes it becomes this place where everybody meet, but
you still see the creation of some innovation hubs where people physically
can meet. I'm going to name the iHub in Kenya to name just one of many we
have but people still need that physical contact and that physical space to
share their ideas and actually understand, talk things through, so it's
still an important component. So, the last point I want to touch upon is
the policy environment.  We obviously neaped to ensure that some of these
barriers are removed, and one way -- one keyway of doing that is actually
talking to some of our policy makers and to ensure that the policy
environment allows for innovation and allows for start-ups to be created in
an easy way that not only supports the economy but also the start-ups. The
Internet Society, we look at -- we have a framework that being describes
the enabling environment framework.  So, we touch upon a number of issues
that we feel are important for generally speaking, an environment that
allows for innovation through the internet. What we've seen that many
policy makers have mainly focused on the development of infrastructure.
And so the investment and the enabling environment has been fairly focused
on infrastructure and the development of the ICT clusters, the geographic
ones but not necessarily the creation of organic community of
entrepreneurs.  So to facilitate their interaction with the traditional
industries, Universities, other stakeholders to be successful.  So we feel
that it is one of the crucial pieces of successful entrepreneurship. So, we
do live in challenging political times as well, so we need to keep that in
mind.  We see an increasing discontent with globalization.  There is a
renewed focus on nationalism in many countries and so the latest attacks,
as well, on the internet have shown that security is also a main issue and
it's a main concern so all of this combined are some of the uncertainties
we're facing that we need to keep in mind as well when we talk about the
maintenance or the preservation that we have.  If we want to keep the
internet open and accessible to everyone for innovation, for social and
economic growth then we need to work together to actually maintain the
internet as we know it now and to make sure that we can continue the
amazing innovation that is already happening and that we want to continue
to encourage. So, looking forward to hearing from all of you.  Thank you.

>> Thanks very much, Joyce, for those remarks, especially the examples of
the innovation hubs, the entrepreneur tools and reiterating the proposition
that entrepreneurship holds to removal of barriers.  At this point many n
time, we go straight ahead to Ms. Carolina Caeiro from lat Nick.

>> CAROLINA CAEIRO: Wonderful.  Thank you.  I'm a member of the Frida
program.  We are also a member of the alliance which is a partnership of
grants and award emphasize program.  We also have fire in Africa and
eastern Asia.  So, just to give you a little context, Frida and also the
partners from the Sid alliance, we work on supporting projects that are
innovate and that resort to or harness, I should say, the power of the
internet to generate special impact.  So today, I will be speaking
specifically about the experience of the Frida program, supporting
internet-based solutions for social impact and supporting, specifically,
social entrepreneurs. So the first thing I would like to mention is that
there are great innovations going and what we're seeing through the work of
the alliance, particularly in social projects is that innovation in our
regions is very needs-driven very much oriented towards problem solving.
So here, there's a very interesting statistic which I assume some of you --
Ted X talk which I assume some of you may have seen, it's actually called,
you don't need an app for that.  In this Ted X talk, he talks about
innovation in Africa, how it's better than other places in the world.  It's
quite interesting.  I recommend it.  And it's point in this talk is that in
the global south we often innovate out of necessity.  I think this is
great, the fact that we innovate out of necessity because what we are
seeing is that work teams in our regions are not thinking of technology as
an end in and of itself but as a means to basically serve communities and
generate social impact so they're putting technology to work and not
necessarily getting entangled in the technology on itself. So in that
regard, I would like to quickly mention two examples.  So today in the
audience, we have actually the award winners of the SID alliance 2016 for
all three programs, and I would like to quickly show case as examples the
two award winners for the Frida program.  So we have Margaret Bernard
somewhere, there, Margaret and Edward from Mexico, Margaret from -- I'll
tell you about their projects really quickly.  If I'm not doing you guys
justice, please feel free to flesh out the idea a little more during the Q
and A. So, on the one hand, we have Agri net which is a cultural project
that basically offers a range of ICT solutions to farmers Trinidad and
Tobego.  Basically, tools and information, just better manage their
production.  And we find Agrinet to be essentially a wonderful example of
ICTs to increase productivity and perhaps more importantly to help farmers
increase their incomes and lift them up out of policy. On the other hand,
we have Mexico leagues which is an alliance of Civil Society and
organizations independent in Mexico.  Basically, what they have done is
offer a safe and secure platform so that anyone that has information,
relevant public information -- so that anyone that has relevant information
can share it anonymously with its community of journalists.  So what they
do once they get this information is fact check it and prepare and use
articles and they have done great work denouncing cases of corruption here
in Mexico, Human Rights abuses, among others.  Again, we find them to be a
great example of ICTs being used to empower communities, to encourage civic
participation and strengthening Democracy here in Mexico. So, of course it
is not all a bed of roses.  There are of course challenges as well that
entrepreneurs face, again, in Latin America and Caribbean but generally in
the global south.  I think the point of today's discussion is also raising
those points so one of the things I would like to bring up is again, also,
aligned with what Joyce had mentioned in her remarks.  I believe one of the
key issues today is still connectivity, internet access, and the digital
gap, particularly for social proins working in our regions who want to
serve disadvantaged communities and rural communities.  And that is,
indeed, a big, big challenge.  So here, I like to share some strategies, if
you will, that we from the Frida program and also from the SID alliance are
trying to implement to circumvent in particular challenge. So, on the one
hand, I'm quite happy we have Mr. Ben in the audience.  Last month, we
organized the workshop on innovation and funding and Mr. Serf actually
mentioned that innovation does not always need to be high tech.  So that's
something at the SID alliance we really take at heart, essentially with
supported projects that have used very simple technologies or that have
incorporated technology in very simple ways and that has allowed them to
generate great social impact.  Essentially, I guess you could say seeking
low tech innovation has been quite crucial for the work of the SID
alliance.  On the other hand, we are also getting involved in projects
related to connectivity and connecting to the next billion.  Specifically
now, we have Carlos here, working on a project called -- which we are
funding through the SID alliance as a whole which is a project supporting
the development of routers, hardware specifically tailors for the
necessities and needs of network communities that we are funding, again,
through the SID alliance through up with of our regional brands.  So
Carlos, I invite you to later on during the Q and A comment about the
progress in that regard. I know I'm maybe running out of time so I'll wrap
up real quick.  Another big challenge I wanted to mention is building
capacity among the entrepreneurs themselves.  What I'm going to say may
sounds like I'm stating the obvious, but what we have found through the SID
alliance as well is that funding is never enough.  That it's key to provide
mentorship and capacity building to the project teams we work with.  So
basically you have a social leader E a programmer, developer that has
become an entrepreneur and suddenly they need to learn how to develop a
business model, put together a team, do their finances and so on and so
forth so we find that building that capacity, those skills with
entrepreneurs is quite crucial for their success.  And last point, really,
that I wanted to mention real quick has to do with the question of funding
which I guess is sort of the big issue that always comes up talking about
innovation and entrepreneurship.  I think I mentioned it earlier but the
SID alliance and the Frida program specialize with giving small grants so
we work with projects at their very early stages of development.  What we
keep seeing in our regions is that it's very well tough for entrepreneurs
that are getting started to catch that initial funding that allows them to
lift their project off the ground and so sufficient risk is removed so you
know other investors are willing to come in. So that's definitely a
weakness we tried to address from the SID alliance but we believe needs
extra work.  Finally, just very last point, also connected to access to
funding, another thing we've been hearing a lot is that entrepreneurs and
innovators are having a hard time understanding -- or I should say, I don't
know, getting to know and navigating the landscape of investors and funding
opportunities, so you know, I think that both from the donors and investors
side, on the one hand, and the entrepreneur's side, we need to do a little
better at sort of improving the processes through which we find one
another.  So I think I will leave it at that.  Hope I didn't extend too
much.  Thank you.

>> That's okay, Carolina, thanks very much, especially for that expose on
freedom program and by extension those considerations on funding.  At this
point, we're going to call on Mr. Paul Kukubo, she's a board member with
the Communications Authority of Kenya and also a serial entrepreneur. Paul?
Yes, we have a mic available.

>> PAUL KUKUBO: Thank you very much.  Because of time, I'll just get right
into it.  Now, the work I do at the Board is that I am responsible
foreheading the technical committee, which provides licensing and.  It's
not a technical role.  I know what's going on at the authority, but I'm not
a technical day-to-day person.  I'm on the Board of Directors.  In my life
as a serial entrepreneur, that's more interesting, I think.  First of all,
if I can just tease out some things.  Most entrepreneurs don't live in the
world in which policy makers live mentally.  They don't understand
frameworks, initiatives, efforts, concepts.  They don't understand those
things.  And those who do, sometimes know how to deal with those issues
better than they know how to run a business and that's an important thing
to understand. I've met entrepreneurs who had no idea about the concept of
raising capital who had very good ideas about business but they don't
understand that their world existed in which there are people who have a
pot of money on the other side who make a living out of giving you money in
your business. And speaks to an issue about the global south.  It's a very
different structure, the global south.  When you talk about the global
south, you don't mean the more roam antic -- romantic animals running in
the wild.  What you're talking about is countries who have serious problems
with infrastructure where water doesn't run properly, where roads are not
smooth, where school fees are not paid on time where schools have no
windows where tax fees are not paid well.  So when an entrepreneur emerges
out of this concept, he's a very buttlescut guy, and sometimes, as I think
many of my colleagues have said before, necessity drives it. Just in terms
of disclosure, I previously run the ICT board, which is now the ICT
authority in Kenya, and I was responsible for information and communication
development and one of the things we said was that many entrepreneurs had
to be exposed to how the government worked and how industry worked in order
for them to respond to those opportunities.  And let me give an example
here -- I've been in some forums where I've seen entrepreneurs write
programs and all they do is write programs.  I've been in one hacker
seminar where they all wrote programs about how to improve the dining
process because it took them a long time to queue and get their food, or
the library process.  That's the only business they've been exposed to
except maybe a small mom and pop shop in the global area.  So how does a
guy like that go on to solve a global problem? He can't because he's not
exposed to that global problem.  It's very distant for him.  So when you
talk about some of the things you need to do, I would suggest perhaps that
there needs to be an intervention in building entrepreneur confidence and
exposure to the global problem set, especially in their own environments,
and also how to interpret those problems as solvable by some of the
technology they have. I'm involved in a company, and I know we don't plug
companies we're involved with, but I'm involved in a company that is doing
some work in the Iicarto sector to develop what we call grow and manage
systems.  Specifically, going to farms, give farmers technologies, give
farm owners technology about how to manage their farms, how to put in crop
yield, how to record what they grow, when they go to a warehouse, how to
record that the product has been received. These teams are so advanced that
now they're looking at rolling it out on a global scale and even adopting
blockchain technology in terms of registering farmers, warehouses, and that
sort of thing.  So this is an example of taking a problem, understanding it
from a granular and from a rural setting, and then applying knowledge that
you've got it over time, courtesy of the internet, courtesy of exposure,
and solving it.  No further questions I don't want to repeat many of the
things that my colleagues are saying with respect to the fact that you need
venture capital, mentorship, government policy that works, environments
that support business, a culture that says, it's okay to be a business
person.  But, one of the things that I want to maybe emphasize is this.
The barriers entry in terms of starting a technology business are not as
high in terms of saying, I could raise enough, it's not as high.  But the
barriers to scale are very, very high.  There are very few companies that I
have seen in the African context -- and I operate both within Kenya and
South Africa now where I spend a lot of time, -- that have actually got
both the ability and more importantly, the meant at to say, I can scale. In
fact, many of them actually don't want to scale because what it is is they
want to do the business to get cash, put that picture cash in their pocket,
and do other things with that money.  It's necessity.  So it also colors
what we have.  So many of the people I study business with are now working
for banks, for corporate organizations because they cannot sustain their
business.  And those who are able to sustain their business have got maybe
a certain mentality that allowed them to do it. So, one of the things I can
tease out as well is when we did our master business plan a few years ago,
we looked at several things.  We said that ICT has to be an enabler of
public value creation by enabling the public sector, which is so important
in emerging markets in the global south, to do its business better.  That,
already, is a problem set enough to keep many entrepreneurs busy.  How to
pay bills.  How it can become more efficient, how services can be tailored
better. Let me tease out an example here.  In South Africa, I'm involved
with a company that is now looking at creating a model where people who
want to purchase electricity can purchase it cooperatively.  Because they
can purchase electricity tokens by almost borrowing from a pool which they
have collectively invested in using trust among themselves.  So, if you're
borrowing on the phone, somebody can write a phone feature that sort
verifies that you're who you are, and also that you're trustworthy because
you're a member of this community.  And then you can raise cash by typing
in a certain number and then your phone -- the lender can actually advance
a little bit of credit on the phone for anybody to do this.  Now, that's
taking an example of something that's a social context and applying it to
solving a problem. Another example, and I think maybe examples sometimes
illustrate better the point than perhaps anything else, is brick.  Now, you
talked about brick, I think, just in terms of disclosure, I sit on the
board of Brick, so Eric and those other entrepreneurs who were mentioned
are pretty good friends of mine and I've known them for a long time.  But
Brick is an example of a company that's taken the connectivity problem in
Africa and said, look, rural connectivity is a problem in Africa.  There's
no electricity, and creating a user model which provides connectivity as a
router which uses an advertising model so can you access the internet for
free in exchange for viewing content that's supported by advertising.  In
order to spread content around. So, there's very many good examples of
entrepreneurs who are responding to the challenges in the global south.
Now, I feel that maybe governments can do more.  I've always felt that.
I've been in government, but I cannot emphasize enough that governments can
do more.  One of the reasons government can do more is this, if you look at
the formations of all these hubs, good as it may be, it speaks to a gap in
the University environment.  So you have a lot of hubs that don't have the
sort of Stanford Silicon Valley relationship, which is high end research,
high thinking.  So, labs are important, but they always have what you call
academic limitation.  Academic limitation meaning that they can have the
challenge -- and not always -- but they can't have the challenge if they're
not properly run.  They can have the challenge of perpetuating a hobbyist
mentality towards application development.  Because it's easy.  It's fun.
Let me try and do this application. So you need a bit of rigor and people
coming in and saying, guys, this problem exists -- and some of them have
done a good job of had -- where you bring in people coming in and talking
about their issues and it encourages people more to be able to create new
ideas.  So I think that's one thing. But Universities in Africa, many of
who are stretched, constrained with academic resources and finances, and
they're not providing the entrepreneurship -- the necessaries that we need
for entrepreneurship in the way that others may and I would encourage
governments to see this as a big necessary part of the relationship between
research, academics, industry, because University is a safe place.  You see
the difference when you go to places like Stenelbosh in South Africa and
I've spent time there, maybe because Telenbausch they live more of a
privileged environment, the kind of entrepreneurs they're turning out in
that environment tend to have a mentality of doing solutions that are
sometimes scalable, yes, but also because of their social context, you'll
find that many of them are writing applications for Europe.  They live in
Europe mentally.  They mentally live in Europe, do European types, and they
get venture capital to come in and do their scale because people understand
what they're trying to do.  They've got the language to talk, they
understand what you mean by series A funding, series B funding, they
understand all that language. Most of the guys I've dealt with in other
markets have no idea, so there's a bit of a maturity issue going on.  So I
think to end it, I just want to end by saying, I think this is encouraging
and you'll find that there are more entrepreneurs in Africa in the ICT than
most people have any idea about.  Many who die on the road side with the
ideas, meaning their ideas die, without anybody ever hearing about them
simply because they don't have the courage, channel, confidence, finance,
or the social aptitude to actually take the ideas for it.

>> Thanks very much, Paul.  I think you've really hit a high note there
highlighting the structural and systematic challenges that are faced in the
global south, especially that disconnect between policy worlds and worlds
that our entrepreneurs and social live in.  On to Sylvia from APNIC.

>> SONYA: My name is Sylvia Cadena, I'm the head of APNIC foundation.  One
of the programs we coordinate is of Asia fund which supports programs and
small awards in the Asia Pacific region from Afghanistan all the way to the
Pacific islands, we cover 56 economies.  Same as Paul, I don't want to
repeat anything that my colleagues have already said.  I'm really grateful
for Carolina's mentions about the SID alliance and the work that Frida,
fire, and ESF are doing together to bring a little bit of light to the
innovators that as you said, kind of left their ideas on the side of the
road because they didn't just have the opportunity.  So I think there are
-- that one of the main challenges for innovation and entrepreneurship in
the global south is that a lot of the work that we do is based -- or that
we see that other people are doing, is based on assumptions.  It's not
based on, you know, soul searching analysis and, you know, really
understanding and asking others that actually think very differently from
how we think. It's like, we follow those on Twitter or Facebook that kind
of think the way we think and live life the way we see it and you guys, we
kind of, more people do, unfriend the ones that don't or just take the
notifications off and that's switching off things that are happening when
you're actually working around your social life also means that a lot of
apps and solutions that are out there are actually disconnected from the
abuse from the other side that might -- the views of the others that might
experience a problem from a different approach. So I think we are in the
space like the IGF when we talk about a multistakeholder problems is like
okay, if picking up again on the project that I have in front of me and my
friend Carlos that is doing such great work, when you have a problem about
access in communities and you have someone in University looking at it from
a University angle or an academic angle and you have people on the other
side of the world that are working from Argentina that is working more on
the community side and you have a different kind of business models that
they are pushing and works in Africa. And then you have different parties
looking at the same problem from a different angle, then that's the way the
multistakeholder approach to problems actually works.  So you may have
different views, you may have different ways of solving problems, and we
are not working only on assumptions. So I think that one of the biggest
challenges for entrepreneurship and innovation in the global south is that
we are not actually listening to each other.  We are just preaching to the
converted, already talking to the same people that think the same thing and
kind of laughing on the back saying, oh, yes, you're doing it great.  But
it's a good exercise to just dive in and try to be challenged by those that
are on the other side of the fence and be uncomfortable by those concepts
that don't agree with because that's the way that scale actually happens.
Scale happens when people from different views and different ways of seeing
things actually agreed that a solution or an app or a device works for
them.  And they personalize it in a different way. So I think that one of
the assumptions that is out there is that a lot of entrepreneurs are
assuming that the infrastructure is actually there.  That there are
pathways to have that infrastructure working.  So, I'm going to put, again,
going back to examples that make a little bit of sense, i in the Pacific
Islands, lots of hackers or attempts to promote innovation in coding and
apps and things happening.  And then, when they have it all done and they
put their Paypal button at the end so we can process it and Voila, there is
a restriction on payments from the Pacific Islands because there was money
laundering issues going on so you cannot pay with payPal or receive funds
on several of the Pacific Islands.  So there you go all the app was done,
all the payment solutions was done, so lots of the developers F they want
to be paid through like a telework kind of system, they have to have bank
accounts in New Zealand to be able to get the money and then they need a
niece or a nephew or an auntie that sends the money in the next flight in
and it gets to this reality of how it all actually works. So, assuming that
the infrastructure is there and assuming that infrastructure alone is going
to generate the change is just, you know, is not -- my point of just talk
to the people on the other side that are dos the other bit so you actually
get an understanding of what the environment actually is, if it is
receptive or not to the applications or systems or devices that you are
designing.  So, it is, I know it is a challenge.  It's not that easy to
find those that think differently to us that are doing things differently
to us.  It is much easier to find common ground with those that think like
us, but it is a part of a strategy if you really want to solve the problems
of the world.  If we really want the SDGs to really have an app for that,
you know, when an app, as Carolina mentioned.  If we really have these 17
massive issues we want to solve to make the world a better place, we have a
game with our colleague in -- used to work at Cysco about trying to locate
cards on a table with sustainable development goals and trying to figure
out which ones are contributing to which and which ones are contributing to
two or more, to try to explain it to others that might actually be looking
at these issues from the policy perspective. So I think there might be an
app for that or there might not be one but there is definitely a framework
to understand what the problems of the world is and what your contributions
to that is and to take it seriously.  For that, I think it's very important
that this strategy is it is not based on assumptions and not based on
comfort.  It is really important to talk not only to those that share the
same views as we do and the strategy is that one that is actually taking
into consideration other views.  As my grandmother you'd to say, it is not
good to have only plan B, you need to plan to have plan Z260 because you
really never know what life is going to throw at you.  My colleagues also
mentioned about visibility and how visibility sometimes makes a whole
difference. I don't think that there are better innovations in specific in
Africa or better innovations in Asia, but I think the three of us, my
colleague in Africa, my colleague Carolina in Asia Pacific, we are kind of
competing to make sure our organizations here coming from Mexico, Ghana,
Malaysia, Philippines, raise your hand, guys, and from the Philippines,
these are my award winners, get their chance, get they are spotlight.
Because yes, sure, there is a lot of people working on electrical systems
and mapping like Malaysia is.  There are lots of people working on disaster
areas.  But they are here so take the time to get to meet them because yes,
the others are not here.  They have visibility.  As it is, you take
responsibility.  Opportunities come also with our responsibilities. We have
responsibilities to be in a place like this and try to talk to people that
do not agree with you, that see things differently, to see life differently
and come back home thinking, okay, what is my contribution to the
sustainability framework and how can I make people's lives better? But it's
not only about feeling comfortable.  It's about taking it seriously and
doing it right.

>> Thanks very much Sylvia, and thank you for that strategy you provided in
reducing assumptions and being able to understand a problem from a
different facet, using a multistakeholder approach and also being
comfortable being uncomfortable, if I'm not mistaken.  Great. And last but
not least, we have Sergio Ariza.

>> I apologize for my colleague who is already not here, but he said hello
and hope you enjoy the IGF in Mexico.  So, just a little introduction about
what Social Tech is.  Social tech is a small NGO based in Mexico City but
mostly we work in Latin America, we try to have Latin America perspective
about social change and entrepreneurship and innovation.  So I will like to
use my participation using two examples of what innovation means for the
Latin America context and actually, I will present three small groups of
different topics that they are innovating in different context. So I will
like to start with the publico, which is a small NGO based in Venezuela.
They are a small group of journalists, developers who in the last years are
working on different activities related to electoral process and elections
and this is a really good example of what innovation means for us.  Because
for us, innovation, at least in the social change or social change maker is
the capacity to be receptive of what is happening around you.  For
instance, you mentioned in the last participation that -- I don't know if
you have in mind what is Ishihiri, it's a platform that enables the
capacity to participate around SMS or tweeting or Facebook, or whatever.
So for Venezuelan people, the context, people from there, the capacity to
be part of the election is a thing that change realities.  In the last I
think five years, Venezuela had a couple of presidential elections that
probably you can hear a lot of them. So, for this small group, the capacity
to use Ishihiri was the possibility to be connected with other parts of the
world.  For instance, they are already exchanging knowledge and exchanging
experiences that they had in the Latin America context and now they have
the capacity to build new and better libraries for this application, for
this software.  So, innovation is the possibility to solve -- the
possibility that one people, the people have to solve problems that they
can see around their context.  This is one example of the capacity to us to
adopt new and better technology that they already use in other places like
Africa.  The second group that I would like to present to you is Ojopublico
which is a small start-up based in Peru.  They are outliers, journalists,
thank you so much.  That's a hard word for Spanish speakers.  This group is
a small group of journalists that in the last two years, they are
rethinking how the journalist is for Peruvian people.  They are really
using the data process and transparency process to encourage Democracy and
encourage participation and actually encourage the capacity to share what
is haming in the government. Remember that Latin America actually related
to the SDG's agenda, that is one of the biggest challenges that the region
has in the next ten years for this agenda. So now, they are, as I say,
rethinking how the journalist looks like in social context but at the same
time innovating the way they're presenting the histories and presenting the
cases of corruption or the transparency that they have in the last year,
they be part of the Panama Papers investigation research.  And now, they
are presenting month after month a new and better history of corruption
that they have. So the problem here is that, okay.  How many stories they
need to show to impact the ecosystems and to get the final goal they have,
which is social change.  So that's a really good example how to use
technology for journalists and how to enable the capacity to be in touch
with the people, yeah? So, in my third example, my last example, I would
like to present to you Codiondo Mexico which is another smaller NGO, a
civic hacker group, that they are building apps to enable civic
participation through technology.  And now they are building platforms and
they are building apps to, as I say, build participation.  But the example
of the key question of this is how to think or how to enable participation
and context where the people has no technology or no connectivity, as you
mentioned.  Now, they are pushing a new agenda into the Congress in Mexico
to enable the participation around using technology or using these apps,
but the problem is the policy makers don't think or they don't believe the
impact that the technology has in the Democracy because we need to rethink
the way that the policy are made.  For instance, the policy in Mexico was
made in the last century. So now, we need to start to think, and actually
that's the key point about this part is that it's not about technology or
what technology can do for you.  It's about how the technology can change
the social environment but at the same time, how to reduce the asymmetries
between people which has the power of the capacity among the people who has
not the possibility to be part of the conversation, and actually, that's
the point.  How to start a new conversation using technology to encourage
the capacities and the Human Rights for people who has not been represented
in the last century. So, obviously, this is only three examples of what we
are doing in Latin America.  Obviously, we have more examples but for us is
the possibility to start this kind of conversation, exchanging technology,
exchanging knowledge, and actually exchanging experiences in the last years
we have. Thank you so much.

>> Thanks very much, Sergio.  Thanks for those examples of social
innovations and I liked how they were focused on a concrete problem which
is specifically good governments and social participation in Latin America
societies.  At this point in time, we are going into what we call the group
discussions.  And of course, as Sylvia and others have mentioned, we have
people in the room who have done it, who have been there.  The idea is that
we want to have an exchange of ideas and we will call on anyone, even our
remote participants at this point. Just as a reminder, the first question
or consideration we're looking at is challenges and opportunities for
innovators and entrepreneurs within the global south and of course we are
looking at well within that the short comings of the actions so at this
point, I would like to open up the floor to anyone to make a comment and
recognize Mr. Vincer.

>> Thank you.  How am I going to do this?  I hate to speak to you from the
back, so I'll stand here.  I apologize for putting my back in front of the
panel.  First of all, I want to draw your attention to a very interesting
experiment which is going on here in Mexico in the poorest and most rural
parts.  There's a company called gallop.  They made their business polling
people to find out what their opinions were but they have decided to branch
out it now into discovering the strengths that people have and in
particular they're trying to find out what are the entrepreneurial skills
that people have and it's not necessarily the case that somebody who is
very smart is also prepared to be an entrepreneur.  So they invented some
tests to try to figure out who is ready to be an entrepreneur.  They tested
15,000 young people who were in the high school age and they found 15 of
them that looked like, based on the test, would be capable of starting and
running a business. One of them is a young girl who noticed in Mexico that
some people were getting fat.  And that this threatened their health
because they had a possibility of diabetes.  So they wanted to start a
healthy candy company.  And she tested really well in this entrepreneur
thing so the Gallop people decided to test their test and they gave money
to her and advice so she could start her candy company.  Now, this is just
still in the process, so I don't have a result yet, but the idea that
finding entrepreneurs is not so simple is very important.  Not everyone is
ready for that, I'm sure you can attest to that just based on what you've
told us this morning.  So that's point number one. And Mr. Chairman, may I
make a second point?  So the second one has to do with what we are
measuring and I was struck by the fact that we always tend to measure how
many start-ups there are and how much money went into the start-ups.  The
important point is how many start-ups survive.  We all know from the
Silicon Valley metrics that when you put money into a start-up 85 percent
of the time, it doesn't work, and it doesn't work for a lot of reasons so
it's important to understand, what fraction of the start-ups do we have?
Are we having successes at all because it won't be good if we put lots of
money into lots of start-ups and none of them work so I want to hear some
statistics about the success stories, what fractions of them have
succeeded.  I have other things to say, but I will return the microphone
because everyone else has things to say, too.

>> Great, thank you very much.  Anyone else?  Challenges and opportunities?
I recognize Margaret.  Please make sure to introduce yourself for the
benefit of all of our participants.

>> Okay.  Hi, I'm Margaret Bernard from Trinidad and Tobego and I'm one of
the Frida awardees for agrinet but my contribution is not really about
agrinet.  Both Paul mentioned about the caption building and I wanted to
share with you what our University in the west Indies is doing.  We have
introduced a course on entrepreneurship and intellectual property.  We have
many of our graduates who are interested in commercialization and business
opportunities and this course is a collaboration with industry in Trinidad
and Tobego and then the Caribbean on a whole and it really provides a lot
of information and experience from successful persons in terms of
entrepreneurship and particularly also the intellectual property, which is
not very often talked about or discussed, but is really a critical part of
entrepreneurship. The second program we have that I wanted to mention
quickly is a program where we pull together persons who have very
innovative ideas and basically we fund them for a period and leave them
freely to roam with their ideas.  We do a lot of mentor ship with these
students and just allow them to develop their ideas and through that and
through some of our contacts with industry, we help to provide funding for
them to be able to take them to the next stage.  I was particularly
interested in this set of questions to be able to identify who really have
that entrepreneurial skill so probably I'll follow up on that as well.

>> Hello, everyone.  I work for the world Chile administration.  This has
been a very interesting panel.  I have heard different things around the
panel only focusing on infrastructure but at the same time that
infrastructure is one of the main challenges we have.  But looking forward,
while we are working on infrastructure, what other issues are important.  I
heard capacity building, also the environment that I would think it means
networking.  In concrete terms, what we could do as government to help in
this process to get a positive outcome in terms of innovation.  And the
second one has to do with transfer of technology.  This is an issue that we
discuss a lot in Geneva in different forums.  We discuss it in WIPO.  It's
very difficult to put this in concrete terms and if it's really important
and exactly what we need to do to foster these and what role it has in
fostering the innovation process.  Thank you very much.

>> Okay.  Thank you very much.  Given that this is both an idea exchange,
I'll probably ask anyone to field those questions.  Sylvia?

>> SYLVIA CADENA: I'm originally from Columbia but I kind of jump between
Asia Pacific and Latin America.  I want to jump around the issue of policy
framework and how it is discussed in places where a lot of us don't
participate.  I guess that's a very important point with talking to the
people who think differently from us.  A lot of the things we discuss are
creative comments and the ideas that they share what they learn and that
the innovation is openly accessible and the people we don't talk with are
the ones that are on the copyright side of the table, let's say.  And a lot
of the priors have issues around deal had the entrepreneurs have issues
around dealing with the, so there are treaties and decisions, problems we
are probably not even aware of.  So one.  Things I think the government can
do very well in intentionals of how they inject innovation -- in terms of
how they inject innovation is to make sure they are aware of how they can
be managed, not only patents but we've seen cases where they go the patent
way and that generates restrictions later on.  So there are issues there.
And then on your question about the policy side of things, there are
Australian agenda, for example, pushes to try to take the economy out of
the mining industry alone, which was called the mining boom to the
innovation boom.  Just by boom, I mean, is a lot of boom, is just that.  Is
not structured in a way that, not by changing a name and thinking that you
have a document then things will fall in properly.  So the policy, as
Carolina mentioned before and also Paul, the policy is an instrument, but
if it's not linked to what is actually happening and how people can access
those mechanisms, then is this assumption that entrepreneurs are going to
have great ideas and because they are great, they're going to have access
to funding, and because they have access to funding, they're going to
succeed. That's not the case.  So I think the policy framework has to be as
flexible and as crazy, let's say, as this environment, as this space is,
and entrepreneurs are under a lot of stress to generate jobs, to change the
world, to do in a place that sometimes just doesn't deliver to the promise
and I think that the policy should address those issues and give them the
possibility to have tax exemptions for at least five years so they can
build a business, encouraging for the number of employment they develop,
the number of women, things that are stimuli for what they're doing, but
that's the policy.  The policy should not say, if you don't have the word
innovation on your business case, we don't support you.  Or if you are
older than 35, you are not eligible.  In sometimes, that's what policy
actually means.  So I guess my call would be to be more inclusive in the
policy.  Think p about out of the box a little bit and try to include the
copyright issues.

>> Thank you and Joyce, and then we'll go back to --

>> JOYCE DOGNIEZ: I see a lot of hands, so I'll make it very short.  I
think from my perspective, there's two things which we touched on a little
bit.  Education, obviously.  Looking at ensuring that the younger
generation -- and I say this as a mom as well, so I have a personal
interest, that the younger generation actually is raised with a more
entrepreneurship minds.  I think that the schooling system is still very
traditional, and let's just say, I live in Luxembourg and Belgium, I have
an Italian husband, it's complicated.  But the schooling system in the
three countries we are linked to is still very traditional.  You teach
stuff, you learn tough, but you don't actually learn to create innovation,
to think innovatively, it's not part of it.  So I think that's one of the
pieces. The other piece, which we didn't really talk about is the digital
economy piece.  And I'll take a very controversial example that we probably
all have used these days, uber.  It's a big issue.  It's a big discussion
in many countries.  The taxation issues, the taxation regulation around
innovation, and I'm taking Uber as one example, but there's many, many
more.  You need to look as governments.  You also need to look that
innovation doesn't stop at the border anymore. So, when you're an
entrepreneur and you create new things, thanks to the internet, as I
mentioned, you break the geographical barriers but it also means that you
as government have responsibilities to work with your colleagues from other
countries to ensure that those limitations are also disabled, I would say.
To ensure that you allow that entrepreneurship to use the internet as a
tool, as a cross-border, as a global tool but that you also enable that
from a government and policy making perspective.  Thank you.

>> PAUL KUKUBO: Let me just chime in here.  This search for a silver bullet
is actually the wrong part in my view.  Government thinking there is a
template somewhere in some University that's going to say, this is how you
create entrepreneurs.  We've been asking this question in so many
conferences, it doesn't work.  I think everything is about context.  An
entrepreneur in Chile or Germany has a different context.  What I say, in
fact for me, the issue is not so much about entrepreneurship, it's about
enterprise development. Some of the people who might start businesses are
better suited buying a franchise or something that actually works and
setting up business with an established business format for which there's
not much thinking required and then they get it to run and it will still be
a viable business and then they can layer on whatever they want to layer on
on top of that.  So if you're a dealer E for example, a Microsoft retailer
in a place that requires licensing, that's a good business.  In the global
south you have a lot of need for even those businesses.  The role of
entrepreneurship is to solve problems that are not emergent that can't be
solved by someone else by applying context and opportunity to that problem.
So I know my colleague talked about Uber and the fact that we have to worry
about global scaling, but when you get to that point, it's a different
problem.  It's a very sophisticated problem worrying about international
law, international licensing, in fact, as an entrepreneur myself, if I get
to that, it's a good place to be because I need expensive lawyers.  It's
something else. At this stage, the issue that we have in the global south
is that we don't have enough people that say, this door is locked.  I need
to create a key that opens the door.  That, to me, is the conversation.

>> Okay, thank you Paul.  Of course there's one problem that we have right
now, which is time.  Seeing that we are a bit into this question, what I
want is one more reaction which is the gentleman in front who will
introduce himself, and then we have a remote. (inaudible)

>> You want to take the mic, actually, because otherwise --

>> So, my name is Muendo, the project manager for Fire Africa.  I work with
Carolina and Sylvia.  So there's this very important question that we have
asked about the impact of the projects that we have fund, but that question
does not only go to the lands because our funding, a drop in the ocean.
That question, I think, is something we should be able to explore more, see
how much money is thrown into projects and how many actually germ Nate and
grow into something.

>> Great.  Thanks very much Mendua.  And he's referring to this second part
where we are looking more at those projects, implementations, and it
details around we want to get some of the learned lessons from there and
otherwise and some of the practices we may want to share, not only from SID
alliance but from anyone else in the room. And just to finish the first
part, I recognize in gentleman and we are already in the second part but
the focus will shift after your intervention.

>> Hello, good morning everyone.  My name is Carlo Moreno.  I work for
University of Western Cape.  My point would be related to the SID alliance
and the importance of somehow we are facing the same issues in the global
south and creating solutions that may tackle problems that are faced across
the regions.  And I think, in that case, I complete lit price the
interregional grant that it's allowing in this case organizations in South
America, Argentina in particular, and an organization in South Africa to
work together to tackle the problems, in this case, the inextinction of
hardware and software -- the inexistence of hardware and software that can
solve some of the issues we are facing in the community networks community.
In the community networks community what we are trying to do is create what
we are calling geek free technologies so any communities can actually
provide themselves with their own connectivity.  The tackles very well the
problems we have been having around the civilian and how these technologies
and problems for most of the 4 billion that are still to be connected are
in the global south.  By creating and having funds to tackle the hardware
and software needs to create solutions that may tackle these problems could
be an interesting way. In that sense, also something I wanted to say very
quickly, you were saying about local knowledge and local knowledge to
create local solutions and I think in this sense, community networks are an
enabling of creating local entrepreneurship.  I just was organizing the
first community networks in Africa a couple weeks ago and ten
representatives of community networks in Africa were there and ten of them
are providing ICT skills and detailed entrepreneurship in the community
centers that these community networks are building.  So, it's enabling
innovation to enable more innovation, so I think that's very important.
And going back to the impact and entrepreneurial skills, where myself, I'm
an academic and an activist and I don't have entrepreneurial skills, so we
are jumping into a space that we might not have all the skills and
experience to make this in, so we are very happy of those mentoring
programs and any other tapes that I may hear in the next round of the
session.  Thank you.

>> Thank you very much.  If we have any else with these specific innovation
entrepreneurship programs, any lessons you have learned, any practices you
would like to share, and of course we take into consideration the comment
lez which does specifically on some of those finer details.  So the floor
is open.

>> All right so this time I'll stand here because the camera is over there.
I want to call attention to something that a company called McDonalds does.
They have lots and lots of franchises so that's an opportunity for someone
to start a business under a franchise arrangement.  The reason I bring this
up is that they have around organization they call hamburger University.
And they basically bring people who are going to run a McDonalds franchise
to the University to teach them about how to do it.  They teach them about
the Food and Drug Administration rules for safety and so on, how to be
efficient, how to hire and fire people if you have to.  The reason I bring
this up so I wonder if we should have school like that for people who want
to start businesses.  Google has started something a little like that,
something called Campus, one in London and somewhere else.  A building full
of people with ideas and entrepreneurial ambition and we bring Googlers
there to be advisers but it feels to me, basically what Paul was saying, is
that the people with the entrepreneurial ideas don't necessarily have all
the pieces they need to make it into a business so we should find a way to
help them do that.

>> Thank you.  Anyone else?

>> Good morning.  I'm Jeffery from the Philippines.  I'm also a recipient
of the awards.  I just want to share the experience in the Philippines
right now because it's different.  Our main concern is the migration of
talents.  Our main concern is talents moving towards Singapore, Australia,
New Zealand, so we have BPOs but most of them the workers are medical
staff, nurses.  There are some jokes in the Philippines that if you want to
get some heart attack, the best place is the call centers because 90
percent are nurses or doctors.  So right now, my concern is, how to keep
this talent in the Philippines.  How to keep this talent at the local
areas.  They say that we are very fortunate because our second language is
English.  For me, it's good and it's bad also, because most of the people
goes away.  They went to the U.S.  They went to Australia.  So it's a
double edged sword.  So my concern right now is how to keep this talent.
I've been working with so many start-ups and they never go -- they never
have any chance to boom their businesses because they have been absorbed to
different big countries.  We have government scholars.  The government
scholars have been spent hundreds of thousands of pesos.  But what
happened?  The bright ones, the intellectuals, when the Japanese government
or any government saw them, they would pay the total amount.  So at an
early age, I see it.  They go to Japan.  They go to the US.  So I think
it's also important to keep those birds in the nest, we must have to
nurture them until such time they can take off.  That's my experience.
Thank you.

>> Thank you for that experience.  Any other experiences that we would like
to share?  Lessons learned?  Practices?

>> Hello, I'm from Gambia.  One of the recipients for the SID alliance
Africa, Fire award.  Basically, what we do is train young people and order
business initiatives.  One of the challenges that woe face is funding.
Sometimes I do tell people it's not like -- most of the time it's
commitment. I think an important part of such conference is they have what
we call the corporate responsibility forms that they can give to emerging
young groups in order to implement activities of the we have this
experience in the Gambia.  Mostly, some of them do provide not to certain
level but I feel like if they inspire forms like this it can be a catalyst
for change in order to be given more of these forms, especially to young
emerging organizations who are inspiring in their communities.  Thank you.

>> Thank you.  Thank you for that exchange.  I think we have time for one
more reaction and then we will wrap up there.

>> I am from Myanmar.  I am also a former recipient of grant.  From what I
have observed here, I think one of the panelists has mentioned is funding
always challenging and the other has mentioned about scaling up after the
start-ups.  So if we put that together, for example, that lady here, she
has mentioned about a very good project they are doing.  Agrinet, yeah?  So
this kind of solution, maybe we can replicate that.  We can use very small
funding and then replicate that in like my country, and it could be very
successful as well so it's an idea to scale up for them as well as solution
for us.  Thank you.

>> Okay.  I think I am being told we have at least room for -- yes.  So we
have these last two reactions and then we are being innovative with our use
of time.  Gentleman in the front.

>> I am from Kenya and straight to the question, I'm glad there are so many
case studies mentioned from Kenya.  My concern or question, rather, would
be to Paul.  We know that in the global south, more than 70 percent of the
population stays in rural areas.  Most of the case studies mentioned about
Kenya mainly have been captured from the capital.  What happens to the 70
percent?

>> Well we take, yes, the last reaction and then Paul can answer it
collectively.  Yeah.

>> My name is Jentethi.  I'm a youth at IGF and ISOC fellow here but I'm a
lawyer in Kenya so my advice to all the innovators and entrepreneurs in
Kenya, this is just a comment, is protect your intellectual property.
There's no other way you'll be protected from the rest of the world.  So
protect your innovation.  It's crucial.  No, you don't agree?

>> What I said is that there are different ways of dealing with
intellectual property.  Find the way that suits you, but just make sure
that you find one.  And that could be completely oath and out there, but
just think about it.  Not only protect it.

>> I agree.  So find what suits you as well.  Yes, that's true.  But the
biggest problem we have is people don't protect their IP, which is a big
problem in the south.  They don't know as well.

>> Thank you.  Thank you.  And Paul, to answer the previous question?

>> PAUL KUKUBO: Yeah.  Okay. I think -- all I'll say is that I made my
point earlier when I said that a lot of innovations have gotten lost by the
way side.  And this rural urban divide in Kenya and many African countries
is part of the problem.  For example, if you live in a rural area and come
from a rural school and have no exposure to urbanization, you will find
that even the uptake of some of what you're trying to do doesn't have the
space and also your own confidence to be able to do a business doesn't
apply in the same way.  You find that most of the successful people will
have to come into an urban area and deploy their technology innovation in
that space.  The infrastructure, the culture, the uptake is just not there.
So you'll find that there are some -- I know one young company that was
involved in a project to try and do something in transport and these guys
are originally from a rural setting came from Nairobi and were able to do
it. So just like in other countries in the world, there are areas where
businesses tend to cluster and the support systems to support them exist in
those areas so Nairobi at this time in Kenya plays that role.  That
shouldn't be the case, but it just is what it is.

>> Thank you Paul.  Unfortunately, we have come to that time and I think we
have generated so much fruitful discussion here that we will continue
outside of the room but at this point, I would like to thank our
speakerses.  I think we had a diverse set of speakers, regions, gender
equalitiment and of course we thank all of you for being here to be here
and raise your concerns and questions so I thank you all and do wish you a
very fruitful rest of your day.

(applause)

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INTERNET GOVERNANCE FORUM 2016 ENABLING INCLUSIVE AND SUSTAINABLE GROWTH
JALISCO, MEXICO

9 DECEMBER 2016 OF38 10:45 A.M.

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INTERNET GOVERNANCE FORUM 2016 ENABLING INCLUSIVE AND SUSTAINABLE GROWTH
JALISCO, MEXICO

9 DECEMBER 2016 WORKSHOP 188 SMART CITIES IN THE GLOBAL SOUTH:
CHALLENGES/OPPORTUNITIES 12:00 P.M. CST

>> Good morning, everyone.  Thank you all for coming.  This is Smart Cities
in the Global South, coding rights women led organization in Brazil.  We
are going to discuss some of the challenges, some of the issues, and some
of the opportunities of Smart Cities.  Focusing in the Global South
context. So, in a broader sense, what we have is, there are -- it's a
context with lack or very fragile Democracies and data protection law and
kind of a lack of transparency and also we have an issue of the media being
paled by the government to say that all of the solutions are good after
they've been implemented so there's not a history of public consultation.
But the Smart Cities concept can be very broad and very unspecific, and
also changes a lot, according to the country.  And in my case, just to
briefly explain why I'm here, in coding rights, we publish like two
reports.  One is in antivigilance, a newsletter, and another one here is
called Chupadatas where we organize all the Smart Cities in the Rio de
Janeiro area because they got Meg a funding because of this world event,
the World Cup and Olympics.  We analyze the solutions and find very
complicated situations like an increase in terms of surveillance of the
streets and the citizens, and we also have the use of smart cars there
combined with biometry that generates a great amount of data that we don't
know how is being used, and in specifically the case of Brazil, we don't
have any data protection law.  We can discuss, I can explain about this
later, but I think that one of the things that makes the discussion about
Smart City less generic and more specific so we can focus on the
opportunities and the challenges is to bring people in this table that have
different perspective, different experiences and also we're going to start
with specific case analyses. India case analyses, then Chile, then Mexico,
and then we're going to have also the perspective from the public and the
private sector.  And we should start with Mr. Sinha.  Can you introduce
yourself?

>> AMBER SINHA: Thank you.  Am I audible?  My name is Amber Sinha.  I'm
from the Center for Internet Society which is based out of Banglor and New
Delhi in India.  I'm here because we've been studying, among other things,
Smart Cities.  As one of the new phenomenons, society moving towards a more
datafied economy and databased governments so in that context, I wanted to
talk about a couple of thing.  One, Smart Cities has been an emerging
phenomena globally and in the last few years and we looked at the Smart
Cities initiative as a case study within that. Before I go into that in
more detail, just as an aside, I wanted to mention that when we talk of
things like Smart Cities, it's important to understand it within the
logical context of this narrative which is developing in the Global South
about jurisdictions moving towards a data-rich economy. So not just Smart
Cities.  We see other initiatives like National ID products, e-governance
projects on a much larger scale and various private sector models.  I
wanted to just lay that con text because I think Smart Cities also doesn't
exist in isolation.  I think Raquel mentioned that the thing with Smart
Cities is that it evolves very often.  The context changes from time to
time so that is something to keep in mind. Now coming back to specifically
the Smart Cities, Raquel also mentioned and I would like to elaborate on
that about the fact that there is a specific lack of discourse so as
opposed to the things like Human Rights data have become very much part of
conversation around Smart Cities but discourse in the Global South is still
largely around the issue of development and questions related to Human
Rights, what are the implications of these sorts of technological
contributions, they have not come very much into the fold.  In India, we've
been involved with a few actors trying to bring that critical discourse.
We've published articles in newspapers and online as well and also carried
out some research around the position, but by and large, the popular
discourse is still sorely lacking in any form of critical discourse around
Smart Cities. The next issue I want to talk about is with regards to Smart
Cities from the north and to the south.  As I mentioned, the phenomenon
around vs. means that the global south has a very large market for large
corporations looking to sell these technologies.  For example, you have IBM
building solutions for transport in Viet Nam, in Africa.  In India, the
Smart Cities mission is supposed to involve hundred cities, parts of which
will emerge as Smart Cities over the next coming years.  The mission is
still at its early stages.  However, over 50,000 countries from 14
jurisdictions have shown an interest in consulting in helping these cities
create primary proposals and then implementing those solutions. So, this is
also an interesting phenomenon we see around the Global South emerging as a
market for these technologies.  And especially I think in the context of
the resource conducted in India, there is one aspect that I would like to
highlight.  The Smart Cities mission doesn't define what Smart Cities are.
If we actually look at the initiative, despite the name, they are more in
the nature of planning initiatives rather than actually initiatives which
involve smart planning or sensors or aspects of measuring the city and
using those data derived from it for planning. However, despite that the
government has gone ahead and sought services from companies with a
specialized in knowledge on providing solutions so there is also building
on the part of government to seek these solutions without truly
understanding the scope of the project that they are themselves
undertaking. Finally, the point that I want to highlight is the fact that
the Global South is also emerging as a very interesting sandbox for Smart
Cities distribution.  The few things that we're noticing is there's been a
marked increase in penetration of mobile phones in these countries.
There's been a number of digital ID projects that have emerged.  There is a
general push towards cashless transactions and using of digital payments
that could use to more datafication of transactions so all of this has
contributed greatly to the amount of data which is available.  Then a
phenomenon like Smart Cities emerges here, it is also a complete lack of
regulatory framework.  For instance, in India, we have a very token data
protection law which is not comprehensive at all and doesn't include all
the sectors.  We have very good antidiscrimination law and definitely not
robust enough to deal with any instead impacts which emerge from solutions
like Smart Cities. We have very big consumer protection law, so these are
also very interesting things to keep in mind because what this means is
that there are less obligation on practitioners and technologists who are
dealing with Smart Cities.  So, while these technologies and solutions are
being slowly implemented, there is no regular framework which exists to
address the negative implications.  With that, I'd like to --

>> Hi, good morning everyone.  My name is Ramino Gerilo from data
protection.  Thank you for the participation.  I would like to talk about
the smart Cities in Santiago, a concept without human rights approach.  The
issues related with Smart Cities in Chile are mainly related with energy
and environment for one way, public security, open government,
understanding the citizen as a part of the change of the cities inside the
participatory process held as a way to telemanaging solutions and
telemonitorring.  But the practical of course about transportation systems,
new forms of biometric payment, traffic management and automatic fines,
among others. But the practical application of the Smart Cities in Santiago
and Concencion has been linked mainly to the public safety and traffic.
Like patterns of behavior, movement, and habits.  Some example of that are
two programs -- one program in Chile, currently our government is buying
facial recognition software to be used in a stadium and other situations
such as protest marchs.  We think what they will do with this technology.
This software is for public safety, can match several information like the
ID card, maintained by civil registry or police, and another example of the
use of Smart Cities in Santiago would be the surveillance through cameras.
But more than cameras, with a system in a hot air balloon.  In our country,
we fragment the legislation of video surveillance, there are monitoring
systems operating in this way by private companies.  These hot air
balloons, our military technology, a powerful system in the middle of the
city in the name of public safety.  NGOs claim the invasion of Human Rights
by this system in a digital action that finally allow it.  They record
decision, if you read that, and I would like to say that the Court decision
said the condition for the hot air balloons was strictly related with data
protection standard.  However, for us, Smart City is a concept and Smart
Cities in Chile are a kind of introductional group which brings together
different public bodies, Universities, NGOs, and is -- but when we're
talking about a Smart City, we're talking about technologies in the city,
but with which purposes?  It's possible, for instance, that
telecommunication company could cache data of geo localization of mobile
phones, for example, or other devices with purposes of including vehicle
traffic management without notifying people. Smart Cities had a promise.
Smart Cities, the promise of efficient cities, efficient resources,
sustainable development.  The promise of Smart Cities is use the technology
advance to improve the quality of life of the people, but where is the
human right assessment or where is the privacy assessment?  The
implementation of the Smart Cities and cities in many case are wireless
sensor that collect all the possible data to assist this desire of quality
of life of the citizen.  Gathering information in data can be smart Cities
maybe convert or can be Big Brother city. In Chile, the digital agenda who
change with every government, there's no continuity about the same
political address about Smart Cities are, and we think that Smart Cities
are a long-term concept.  But in practice, Smart Cities is a documented to
change with every administration. But, trying to address these issues in a
positive point of view, Smart Cities are a good example of the need of
control and fulfillment of data protection law.  It's necessary a strong
framework in that issue.  Why?  Because if our connectivities are powered
by surveillance and Internet of Things and big data so data protection must
be in this kind of thing and around the cities.  In Chile, including Smart
Cities as political aspect but with at least five different cities related
in chilla and this doesn't stop.  To finish, some remarkables ideas. In
this context of city of technology, is necessary data protection system
that guarantee the protection of Human Rights, not only privacy, also free
movement that is not existing in Chile.  But we know the data protection
framework not enough.  Smart City cannot be a slogan of our modern
governments or just be like that.  There are principles, also principles of
data protection that I would like to highlight. The first one is
transparency between the specific goals of being smart.  What is the real
purpose of the Smart City, when is security, when is monitoring, when is
surveillance?  Transparency about the source of data protection is key.
Closely related with that is the management of the city. Who is behind?
What is the impact of technology?  What are the benefits?  Why this
technology or not another? What is the problem?  What do they want to solve
as society?  What will you want to solve in our cities?  Accountability of
the administration regarding to the implementation of the technology is
also the key.  Citizens can be the focus of information gathering.  The
collection of data in Smart Cities is something to hide.  Nobody talks
about that.  Nobody talks about Smart Cities as a data processing issue.
When the government talks of Smart Cities, they don't talk about data
gathering and the first purpose or even a second purpose.  The narrative of
surveillance in public space become important in this regard.  We must
understand the risks of our freedom and demand not only Smart Cities, just
better cities for the Human Rights.

>> Hello.  My name is Victor Ragas.  I am director at the University of
Guadalajara and director of the Smart Cities which is at the University P.
I am here to tell you about the challenges and use case that we have for
Mexico.  So, notice case of Mexico, the Smart Cities not started like that.
It started like an economic goal.  So Mexico has a long arbitration being
based on manufacturing economy-based, so sector was very important.  Close
to 2004, 2005, there was an achievement from the Ministry of economy
looking to have a more value for these manufacturing and then we started to
open a cluster for industry of aerospace, so aerospace was very important
and now we have one city in 2008, which is very prominent because necessity
attract a lot of big companies so it's not the same thing to have one piece
or assemble one car than just doing the value for assembling airplanes.
But that was still manufacturing. So, from the government, they started to
look about how to give another change for Mexico and spread the model in
all the country, and the next step was to go to an economy of knowledge.
So knowledge economy is the next step where you're not doing assembly or
tangibles in physical way.  It's just like software, like developing
digital animations and other products and in that case, there was a
challenge in all the country to develop the first city that should be not
the Smart City but the digital city.  So in that context, the whereabouts
of 20 cities in the country that were just putting a project and it was
like creating a technology to host all this talent and all these possible
companies to come.  Like, for example, Disney, Pixar, and all that are
working on the digital economy. And Guadalajara was different because we
decided to transform the downtown of the city.  So what happens in all the
cities is that usually you have the downtown, and then you put the
industries around the downtown so the people immigrate from the downtown to
outer circles of the city and in that case the downtown starts to be more
slower in economy and interaction with the people. So the people remains in
the downtown living becomes to be older and then the economy moves outside
of the city and the city starts to grow.  So what we have in Guadalajara is
that case.  Today we have a metropolitan area of 4.6 million people and a
lot of plaices around the metropolitan area saw growth and the downtown was
just forgotten flay way. Guadalajara is one of the most cities in Mexico
and also in Latin America, so in 14th century when it was founded the
downtown was a ripe area for security, and economy, was a lot of traditions
also emerged from that.  So Guadalajara proposed to renew this downtown and
put a cluster of companies for industries, and that was a project that went
in 2012 and it was something from the federal government and the president,
and that was just the starting point for the first city in Mexico looking
to have some shift in the economy. But inside that, we needed to get some
credit to say, okay, we're going to do that model for Mexico and it's going
to be okay.  It's going to be with the best that we can find.  So the
initiative was from the Ministry of Economy but then also the industry
chambers in Mexico, especially for Ministry of Technology because they were
closely related.  In that case, say let's get some consulting from big
institutes. So we got MIT and with MIT it was just among a lot of other
possible consultants to develop the plan for the technological city or the
smart city, so we started with the smart cities.  Then we have been looking
for a business model and in that case, it was accenture, which is London
based, and it was the model to follow some business creations that we can
rely on. And then we look also for the very important social
transformation, the social part, and in that case, we look for the case in
Barcelona City where it was also a place which was similar to Guadaljara,
forgotten and transformed, but then started from the social side.  So
create a city was not take people out of the downtown and put in some kind
of ghetto and create branding with the companies.  It was how to make the
people who is there and how to make them shift in the economy and how to
track more investment in the city.  So in that case, we take from
metropolis working.  In 2012, we ended with something very important for
the cities which is a matter plan.  It's a master plan for 18 years. The
challenge was we were finishing, which is very common in south American
companies, with one party in the federal government and with a transition
with a new party, a new president and new minister of economy, new governor
of the states and new person to drive the municipality.  So we had to
combine and reconnect the project.  For that was created a civil
organization, a non-party organization to keep driving the project and the
industry also within an ecosystem of the Universities, which is very
prominent in Guadalajara.  We have about 150,000 students at the
University.  It's a large system, not only with public University but also
very important private Universities and other technology that belongs also
to the public area. The Universities are something that are autonomous from
the government so it's another point of use.  Sometimes we agree.
Sometimes we don't agree.  And then just happening with that with the
master plan and just starting projects, we connected worldwide with the
Institute of Engineers, people think that Atropoli is from the U.S. but
it's a large association from around the world with more than 203,000
members.  Different point of view and we submitted to Guada lajara and it
was the first pilot of this institute. To start looking the process of
building Smart City and this transformation from digital economy needed to
be published in some way for other countries that wanted to start but they
didn't need to reinvent the wheel again.  So knowledge in this case is very
important to shared experiences.  And with N we started to work Guadalajara
City with other cities in the country and other connected to develop the
Smart City project.  People think that Smart City transformation is
something you're going to do in one or two years but in fact it takes time
because it's not the government or the industry or technological solution,
but it's all the society, the citizens, which are the core gnat Smart City
who need to accept and validate the different technologies and are going to
evolve and once you start saying that you are running a Smart City, this is
something that is doing some expense and you don't finish because once you
fix something, another challenge will be emerging. So, this is for
Guadalajara, one of the important projects.  In Mexico, there are many
cities looking to claim how to be a Smart City.  Some cities are just
opening, for example, in the center of Mexico in Puebla, they have a big
company, which is Audi and they are just taking a town from zero and
creating that like in a Smart City.  The approach that we have here in
Guadalajara is to renew the downtown, bring it alive again and reconnect to
the city and just create a model that can be viral and reconnect.  The
government today is very focused on social innovation which is an important
factor for the city and there is a lot of entrepreneurial people that are
just working.  We work with big companies like IBM, Intel, Cysco, Hewlett
Packard enterprise which they have a long history here and thousands of
workers inside, so something related.  But we are not expecting to have one
solution from one company and we're not expecting to have the solution and
not being able to drive the solution or modify or know how it works so in
that case, the Universities are the base which created talents and to be
with these companies who empower solutions, something working here could be
working in either cities and the goals and exchange for the benefit of
other people. With Atropoli, we are leveraging some initiative at the very
national level.  We have city in Italy which is about 300,000 people living
there, different economy and different challenge than Guadalajara but we
share a lot of things in both cities.  We have then Wuxi in China, which is
bigger than Guadalajara, about 6 million people in the in the metropolitan
area.  And then we have Kansas City in the U.S., another challenge and
experience that we are connecting.  And we have also Morocco Casablanca in
Morocco.  Just doing a transformation for the Smart Cities is not something
local but is something that should be connected through the world.  So.
That's from my side.

>> OLGA CAVALLI: Okay. I think this is okay.  Thank you.  Thank you very
much for the invitation.  My name is Olga Cavalli, I'm from Argentina.  I
have some fellows in the audience and the president of the Internet Society
the Argentina chapter, I'm a member of the ISOC board also.  I appreciate
the exchange of information given by our colleagues here in relation with
complete examples of implementation of Smart Cities and improving the
infrastructure of our Smart Cities within the region.  I would like to
bring to you a more global perspective, especially focused on the work that
I'm doing in study group 20 of ITUT in the ITU.  First, I would like to
also to remind you about the recently issued United Nations sustainable
development goals.  There are two of them that are very important for the
Smart Cities.  The first one, I would say -- well, you can go and review
all of them but I would like to stress two of them.  Goal nine, build
resilient infrastructure and foster innovation.  And then the other one is
goal 11, which I think is relevant for what we are talking about today.
Make cities inclusive, safe, resilient and sustainable.  And some numbers
that are really very impacting.  Half of humanity, 3.5 billion people live
in cities today. By 2030, which seems very far away in the future, but it's
not that much if you have to plan a city, almost 60 percent of the world's
population will live in urban areas.  90 percent of urban expansion in next
decade will take place in the developing world that impacts us directly.
828 million people live in slums today and the number is rising.  The world
cities occupy just 3 percent of the earth's land but account for 60 to 80
percent of energy consumption and 75 percent of cashon emissions.  Carbon
emissions.  Rapid organization is extorting pressure of fresh water live in
the environment of public health and the highest density of cities can
bring efficiency also with technology innovation while reducing resource
and energy consumption. So, this is what is happening today.  It is part
past United Nations developing goal so we would expect part of these
statements from United Nations to be included in local and b regional
policies in relation with Smart Cities, which is what gathers us this
morning.  Also remember that four of the 15 largest cities in the world are
in Latin America, Mexico, Sao Paalo, Rio, and Buenos Aires are some of the
largest cities and should be looking at this challenge for improving
infrastructure.  In our region, urban population is about 585 million
expected by 2030, and there are several standardization efforts of all the
technology that is developed around Smart Cities and communities. I would
like to talk about one of them where I participate.  It's study group 20 of
ITUT.  ITUT is one of the three divisions of the international
telecommunications union, which is a body of the United Nations, and they
have built -- they started a new study group in October 2015.  Which is
called study group 20 focusing on Internet of Things and Smart Cities and
communities.  The study group is divided in two parts.  One is about
Internet of Things and the other is about Smart Cities and communities.  I
personally am rapporteur of question 6 about infrastructure and Smart
Cities for communities of What the study group is focusing on, ecosystem of
Smart Cities and communities, applications, services, use cases, standards
directly related to it, open data, integrated sensing and management for
sustainable cities and communities.  How can you participate in a study
group of ITUT?  Well, you have to be a member state or you have to be an
organization that belongs to the ITU.  Personally, I myself represent an
organization which is the CCIT, the (Speaking Spanish), which is a not for
profit organization that is excellency center of training for the ITU.  So,
finally, and giving more space for questions and comments with the audience
and with colleagues, I would say what we have noticed in the working group
so far that there are several challenges and opportunities.  So we should
also not forget the internet access and the IPB6 transition that is part of
the big problem of the infrastructure.  It could be good to use all these
technologies for traffic control.  It is important to balance the regional
and national needs.  We should not create a new divide in between cities
that are connected and cities that are not connected.  Cities that are
smart and cities that are not smart.  There are privacy issues, security
issues, and all this should be done now we are in the IGF in a
multistakeholder approach and I will stop here. Thank you.

>> So, I have a mic.  No, it's there.  I can manage right here.  Right.
Thank you.  Thank you very much.  So I think in this presentation, I'm
going to sort of wrap up what we already heard, and it's really convenient
that I came to the end because I see many common understanding.  Obviously,
my perspective is more was described before coming from the
technical/research private sort of perspective.  I'm working for the center
of expertise of sight at The Hague University of applied sciences and also
teaching, doing research.  And in fact, obviously Smart Cities have raised
a lot of concerns and we're going to look at that later, but also I think
there is a lot of optimism about it and it is more focused on what Olga
just mentioned now, the opportunities for development. So, if we look at
the conceptual framework and is not going to be black and white, but what I
think is important to acknowledge is that this is Smart Cities are global,
political, and as well technological projects.  That's acknowledged by all
the challenges. However, there are some differences in the way they arised.
In the developed north the Smart Cities tend to be to meet an environment's
social or political targets or needs.  Modern, in the Global South, Smart
Cities enable modernization and development responding to problems that
arise from population, pressure, climate change, immigration that has been
mentioned also by my prior colleagues, and rural and obviously urban
transition as well.  And obviously, this is not an exhaustive list. So, we
can acknowledge that in the Global South they have been created from
scratch, top down rather than retrofitted.  So, looking at that perspective
therapist, we can sort of look in the more holistic way of the waves of
development of the Smart Cities and what I have found in my own research on
this is that basically, there has been a first stage in which large global
IT companies were trying to sell large scale solutions to cities that
weren't convinced that they needed them.  So that was the first phase that
has already passed, somehow, around ten to 15 years ago. The second phase,
unfortunately, clashed with the international financial crisis in 2008, and
then therefore tech companies offering investment to get started but cities
still did not buy in and it was a problem of budget, mostly.  These
applications were too expensive and pricey for the normal budget of
different cities.  So there were mostly budgetary constraints there. The
current pace, and obviously I'm not generalizing but I think perhaps
applies to many of the cases we have already heard of, they're looking into
solving specific problems with technology and new business models, choosing
to work with special start-ups models and I think it is precisely this that
is rising at the moment.  I've seen it.  We with the Dutch delegation of
the IGF had breakfast day zero and we had actually the secretary of
Guadalajara innovation commission, sort of.  She explained again what you
explained to us today, and it was quite clear that there were some start-up
business people who were sitting there as well.  And they were mentioning
that actually it was creating opportunities for business, but for in the
small scale, which is also important to acknowledge.  Because that's also
development, and that's going to, obviously, reflect on job opportunities.
For instance, the person who came explained to us that they were actually
hiring local IT people, locals that were being trained in order to respond
to the Smart City solution.  So I think that's rather a good approach and I
think this is obviously being reflected in these so-called new business
models such as start-up models are arising.  So, in this case, seeing the
beginning of offering tangible solutions, more flexibles, and also looking
for these specific business models to fit their needs or the needs of the
city. However, what I want to -- I've been already discussing in my
research and also trying to address as a current way forward, let's put it
like that, is the convergence.  I'm looking at the moment of top down and
bottom up approaches.  Top down has been mentioned already by my colleagues
here. All these concerns that come from resilience theories or specific
practical situations or problems that have been arising in concern to
privacy or cybersecurity -- or privacy by design, security by design.
However, there are also bottom up approaches and these are looking at open
innovation, co-creation, cities and engagement, sustainablity,
inclusiveness.  In the making and implementation of a Smart City. So the
question that I actually bring to all of you that are -- have been
implemented already these Smart City solutions in your countries is, it's
possible to engage.  Is there any chance to engage and harness these two
approaches?  The top down and the bottom up?  And what could be eventually
the impact in implementation of these solutions? I will leave it there
because I think we're -- still some time to go or?  Finally, I want to
mention perhaps the current -- more informative for you to know, there are
many current national forums in which we are discussing Smart City
solutions and obviously, Olga already mentioned the ITU forum but there is
also the United Nations specialized agency for implementation and
communication technologies, that's the one you mentioned, and united for
Smart Cities, and in Holland, we are hosting Smart Cities and community
Coalition that is aiming to be a really international Coalition dealing
with the Smart Cities.  Maybe some of the representatives of the
governments here already working in this Coalition.  And finally, the most
well-known is obviously the Smart Cities acts for Congress that usually
takes place in Barcelona and was just a month ago taking place this year.
So that's obviously to wrap up. But I think there is also a regulatory
framework for IoT and that's also what I'm looking in my research recently.
IoT is not likely to be straight forward because there are different scales
of deployment and different communication models.  So at least need to
acknowledge four common communication models described in the internet
architecture board, and these were also mentioned somehow by my colleagues.
Data sharing device to get way, device to Cloud, device to device, so those
are the current architectures.  Around these, recently, we have had the
research done by Oxford Internet Institute, professor Ian Brown that is
describing different scales of deployment and he touched upon these
specific concern that's comes out from the architecture of IoT and these
are mostly concerning individuals, obviously, concerning privacy, a rise
there, and in terms of the community level including connected cars, held
devices, smartphones, so on and so forth. And finally, society, and I think
this is quite an important implementation.  Society, many systems like
Smart City, smart grids, smart electronic, gas, water meters.  So these are
sort of three level that's can escalate the development of IoT regulation.
Just to give you a final example, the city of Rotterdam, current local
government has been implementing waste management system in the Netherlands
and it has been quite successful and it has been mostly based in the third
way I described, that's mostly based on start-ups and consultation with the
citizens of the city of Rotterdam, so perhaps that's just to add a little
bit more, an additional example coming from Europe but still worming to
understand and pay attention.  Thank you.

>> RAQUEL RENNO: Thank you.  Thank you all.  Before I open mic for
questions from the audience, I just want to thank Paz Pena couldn't be here
and was coordinating this banner with me and also participated a lot in
developing the concept of this session.  And another thing, it came to my
knowledge that there was some kind of social media text making kind of
jokes about people who couldn't speak English or make their questions or
their participation in Spanish, which I think that is intolerable.  And
it's against Human Rights, and we've been discussing in IGF the need for
diversity and access, so if you want to make your questions in Spanish,
you'll be welcome.  And well, now is the time for you to propose questions.

>> Thank you for the presentation.  I am Santiago R3 and I have a question,
a couple of questions, regarding the implementation of Smart Cities in
Guadalajara, I would like you to go deeper in, what kind of data do you
capture, what kind of services do you use data, and also if you could
explain us how does the protection of Human Rights, it's inserted in the
program?  Thank you.

>> Okay. So, something that happens with this Smart Cities is that you need
to play the role with the government, with the academy, and with the
industry.  And when you go to the government, from my point of view, of the
academic, and we say, okay, we have a great project that we developed at
the University, and we have some cooperation with some industry.  So, we're
trying to tie it to open standards, duringability, et cetera.  And then the
government say, okay, but the city is very serious.  We don't want to have
a playing area where something fails and then the cost will be higher.  So
what we created is the concept of a network of living laps that are held at
the Universities as neutral spaces and then inside of these living labs,
we're developing all the sensorrors and what is needed to react the
activators and putting all the technologies inside. So, in order to go
through the city, we need to show that it works, that it works fine.  And
then there's a process for public policies and then it goes through the
city.  So to date, there are stations, this is from a long time ago, to
monitor air quality, for example.  There is for traffic, some sensors
moving in that.  The biggest challenge now for the government and, it's not
only that of the government, from the different points of view, academy,
industry, and non-governmental associations, is to connect all the data.
Because this is a way to transform a normal city to a Smart City. When you
have from the office of transport that they have all this information and
it's closed and the people, the civil persons are not able to look into
that information, then there is not a possibility to connect
entrepreneurial activities to develop a mobile application that can bring
better service based on that information. So the main transformation at
this moment is to connect all this data that is already in the different
governmental offices or is just developed and incubated at the living labs
with the Universities, and it's just in a way to be connected through the
downtown. So, for the master plan that we have for the city, there is what
we call the digital hub in the downtown of the city, which is in place
because there is a lot of work to bring you.  And this digital hub is the
place where we're going to send the living labs through the downtown to a
real living environment.  We use the Universities because they are huge.
For example, the campus where I am is about 20,000 population with students
and professors inside, so it's like a microcity.  And it's a more
controlled environment that is just getting with the privacy issues or
who's going to pay the bill for communication, on everything.  So, in this
case, when this side on the downtown of Guadalajara will be ready, then all
the divisions from the communication and civil service, we have the part of
connecting and testing other parts of the city. For instance, one of the
challenges in Mexico is to have high speed connectivity to the internet,
and there is also a project that is just reconnecting the downtown,
organizing that that this initiative from the federal government.  But, the
local government is embracing that because they understand that just having
a lot of connectivity with talent producing some solutions based on
technology will bring something better for the people.  But in some ways,
also the way for the Smart City is to be very holistic so it means they're
going to connect information today for the healthcare system that we have
in the city just to know, for example, where the people have some problems
with the lungs, for example, and just connect that with the data that we
are just getting from the air quality systems, identify the areas, and just
start taking actions. So, one part that we're developing all together is
based on the metrics of our city, and I think it's the base for all of our
cities to have some metrics that just consider everything and how these
indicators of the city are just getting some balance in one area or not, to
bring the solutions. And this is a work where we just say, okay, it's not
only the government, but there is a possibility to bring solution from
civil organization, from Universities r or from a company or a start-up
that emerged in this case. But this is more or less how Guadalajara is
behaving.

>> RAQUEL RENNO: Any other questions or comments?

>> Thank you, Ian fish, Fish, question especially for Catherine.  You gave
a very persuasive argument that the marriage of top down and bottom up
approaches would work but in many feels of endeavor, this is very difficult
to do.  One I'm particularly familiar with is risk management and trying to
Marie a top-down risk management strategic approach with a bottom-up
different types of risks is always problematic.  Are there similar problems
in trying to do it practically or academically, from an academic
perspective, in Smart City thinking?

>> CATHERINE VAN HOOGSTRATEN: I think the different concerns that has been
raised, especially for instance, in relation to big data or privacy, do
have a grounded sort of reality.  But what I'm looking is mostly, and maybe
I have to change shout description of the bottom-up, but it's mostly about
e-governance and maybe that makes more clear.  And I think when I'm
proposing because it's just a proposal and obviously there is no testing of
this yet unless we see in the real cases, and that's precisely my interest
in engaging with the local governments, is to what extent and in which
specific cases -- because it obviously cannot be applied to everything, but
in which specific cases this may work? I have been following some cases
before obviously raising these sort of hypothesis or thesis and I have been
looking in Brazil, where, for instance, civic engagement concerning to
elections have been positive.  Also cases in Columbia -- yeah.  So,
therefore, then, it might be that for specific branches, this could be
eventually a solution.  Not an overarching solution but at least an
approach in which it is possible to not always have the private companies
sort of providing their technology but also having the citizens engage
strongly in implementation of the Smart City.  Having a voice. I think
there has been also several studies done in terms of, once again, e-
governance, and it creates a sense of ownership, and that's what Smart
Cities should be.  It should create a sense of ownership in the citizens.
And that's why the proposal of harp he ising both top down and bottom up,

might respond to that need of engagement, of ownership.  So that was the
point I wanted to make.

>> If I may -- I would like to share with you.  And I agree with Catherine
that that channel should exist.  It may be not the only one or the solution
for all the problems of a complex city, big city, but the channel of
citizen participation and proposing ideas should six city of Buenos Air es
opened a contest -- you know, Argentina is a very entrepreneurial country
because we live always in a crisis.  We live from crisis to crisis like
many other countries in our beautiful region, so people is very keen to
entrepreneurial and bring ideas.  So they open a contest for people
proposing solutions, including Internet of Things technology for
transportation access to buildings and parking lots and environment, how to
handle waste and -- my English is horrible today.  So, it was quite
successful.  Some of them were implemented, and those that could win the
concept get the project developed and to see funds to free period.  So I
think that's both.  But the responsibility of the city government is
irreplaceable, so they should manage the whole thing.  That's my comment.

>> Okay.  Thanks very much.  This is really, very, I think interesting --
one thing I cannot help -- oh, sorry, my name is Jack, I'm -- I live in
Malaysia.  One thing I cannot help but think, the question that pops up in
my head is who are the intended beneficiaries for the Smart Cities?
Because I think when you think about scales and which you think about
people in a city scale, it tends to o literate differences.  You're
thinking, we need to make this city more efficient, but at the end of the
day, who is the imagined intended beneficiary?  Is it the middle and top
tier?  And in which case, what happens, then, so the people who are already
tended to be included or not very attractive to a good city?  So people who
are homeless, for example?  How can then we think about development of
Smart Cities starting from the bottom tier so how can we make cities much
more holding of people who are excluded currently and in doing so, bring in
the Human Rights piece.  So I think someone was thinking about the Human
Rights framework, I think it would be really, really great to think about
how this could be implemented from the get go. And the other thing that I
also cannot help think about is the privacy implications because we're
talking about movements, behavior, so on.  And in a lot of developing
countries in my context, at least, privacy is not something we care about a
will the.  So there also seems to be one level of awareness and even
whatever models we're talking about bottom up or top down but if you don't
have that piece of consideration around privacy being critical, that won't
enter into the consideration and this is such a huge impact so how do we
think about implementing all these pieces?

>> Studying many IGF, at least the plan that I study in Santiago and Rio
doesn't think about the public transportation needs.  For example, women,
because there are data that show that women are in a part-time job in a
proportion of two to one compared to men.  It generates special needs for
transportation.  It also implicates a lower income, so there some plan to
make it cheaper, discounts, have smaller buses to more a neighborhood area
because these women are taking care of the kids doing home job?  And also
the elders.  The way elders were not contemplated in these plans, too,
because they also need to have buses that go through neighborhoods that are
not in the main flow areas.  They are not going to work.  So, basically,
studying the plan, although those plans start with technology for the
people slogan, I haven't seen it cross studied with the real people.  It
was basically a plan to make the car flow going, we have this problem with
public transportation in Latin America.  Very generic.  We built cities for
cars and I haven't seen a plan who are challenging that and also it's a
city that basically is people going to December because they have to work
and this is just some portion of the population.  Not everyone is doing
that so I think this is very complicated.  This is what I got from the
studies I've been doing.  I don't know if somebody else wants to address
other examples.

>> I would like to add, I completely agree with you.  How to say, the
positive way to address Smart City concept is the data protection, is the
need of control of our data.  And the fulfillment of the data protection
law.  I you'd to work in the Ministry of Transportation in Chile before to
take part in the Civil Society, and the Smart City was more than a slogan.
It was a way to do things with a multistakeholder issue with different
actors, but without Human Rights approach.  And the Smart Cities are for
citizen, are for the people, at the end of the day.  And in my completely
opinion, we talk about openness, we talk about transparency, but when we
talk about a Smart City, we don't talk about these issues with transparency
about how the companies are processing our data to make better cities. So,
we want to change this approach to the Smart City to the concept more close
to the Human Rights concept because we believe that their technology are
amazing, and we want to better city.  We want to better mobility.  We want
to better management of the traffic.  We want cities more safely, but the
government or the companies can know and fringe other from the other side.
So the Smart City, whether a complex concept who has to consider the Human
Rights approach about data protection principles.  Because the Smart Cities
are powered by data from the citizens.

>> Okay.  The goal when we started to learn about the Smart Cities is to
have in the middle the citizens and just try to find the best quality of
life that we can bring for them in the city.  And that's when we talk about
technology, not about technology, but what we are going to do to make
better for the people that are living in that city and what we're going to
see in this global world, the people is going to start choosing the city
when they can live better and when they have better opportunities for all
the senses.  Human Rights, job, economy, how they are behaving in the city,
how they can connect.  And we're looking like an era like it was for
America when we started.  The first cities started because there were some
mines where they can extract some value and then we started to see when the
mine was closed because there were no more minerals with some value to
extract, then the towns were like phantom places.  That's what's going to
happen with the cities getting economy very fast but they are not keeping
care of the natural environment.  They are not keeping care with how they
are interacting with the people. At the end, these cities are going to be
alone but we know from the future by 2050 by UNESCO, we're going to be 80
percent of the population of the world living in cities so the challenge
now is which will be the best cities to live in the world and that's what
takes today Smart Cities as the hot topic, does the government understand
that?  Does the citizens, the people in the environment understand?  That's
why this concept of ownership of a city is very important.  So when we
start to develop the cities, the smart cities, we want people from social
sciences, I learned that there are also levels of development. The first
is, the government knows that there is a problem and they create something
they call the panopticon model.  This model is as centralized as the
government.  They want the technology to benefit the people because they
are not able to decide on their own and I'm going to put the solution and
control everything and I don't let other people to correct with other kind
of technology other than we have. The next level is when the people become
civic hackers and they bring the technology and they start to work together
with the government with the solutions.  Okay, this is not working here.
The garbage system is taking a lot of time and creating a lot of traffic in
this area.  So they go to the government and say, okay, to let us bring a
solution and it happens.  So there is another level from empowerment from
the people of the city that says, we can make better and it's not only the
task of the government. The last level is when you have some ownership and
you say, I'm paying taxes but we're not able with those taxes only to solve
that problem, we're able to invest citizens to make it better.  Which is
happening in cities like Amsterdam, for example, which is a very high
level.  The people discuss a lot with the government and there is a lot of
interaction and in this case, technology is just the vehicle for that.
Between the people, and we have been looking at cities that were just in a
very controlled way just disassembled because the people were organized and
starting to discuss about that so it will help but it's not only -- it's
just getting the empowerment of the people an getting a concern if we don't
deal with the city, the city is going to be alone in a few years, this kind
of concurrency in the world.

>> I just want to add, I absolutely agree with these words and also what
Olga mentioned as sustainable development and I think both harnessing top
up and down are only aiming to that to achieve these but also to crowd
source public participation.  There is so much in the citizens, so much
information, but the good one, what they want, what they need, what exactly
is sort of Democracy should be applicable in their cities.  There is so
much, as I said, value in the thinking and needs of the citizens that can
only be processed through Smart City solutions.  There obviously has been
other implementations as generally in governments who has been already
working for years.  But you think with the case study of Smart Cities, then
it even allows for more participation.  As long as it's working in this
way, I think it's going to have a positive impact.  And as long as data
protection, at the end, companies have to comply with the law.  Nobody is
saying they do not need to comply with the law in order to have Smart City
solutions and they have to, and that has to pass the government to see what
extent they're complying with.  Even in the participation of the citizens,
they can also inform and provide informations for, okay, there is a
specific amount or type of data that I -- that is already available and we
are against that, for instance. So, there is -- I just see these as Smart
City solutions as a channel to basically provide more interaction between
government and citizens.  So I just wanted to add that.

>> I think we have another question.

>> I had a question for Jessica and Amber who are both doing research in
the global south on these issues, based on your knowledge, what kind of
evidence, information is lacking in discourse in order to move it forward
in terms of what the problems are but possibly as well some solutions,
where do you think there's opportunity for further research on this topic?

>> AMBER SINHA: On the one hand, I think some of the solutions you
mentioned with regard to civic hacking and creating safe spaces for
citizens to engage with the city, I think those are all great initiatives.
But the concern that I have had with that is most of these solutions that
have been proposed are of the nature which involves creating a space, and
there is an onus on the citizen to have certain capacity to engage in that
space, which is sorely lacking, especially in the developing world. On the
other hand, what would be, I think far more useful is the default to move
towards data decision driven making towards urban planning within the Smart
Cities framework, then mechanisms which take into account those who are
underrepresented.  Most of these data sets have very strong structural
inequities so I think that will be something which will be far more useful
in my opinion to have solutions which address that problem and somehow
unbiased algorithms which bring in people who are underrepresented within
the framework so they're accounted for in that decision making processes.
And we hear very little about solutions which could address that problem.
That is one thing I wanted to mention because I think this is a great
panel.  A lot of discussions about we in Civil Society have about Smart
Cities, we seem to start with like minded people and it creates an echo
chamber so it's really great to hear detailed perspectives and some very
convincing arguments.  But, this is something which has bothered me for a
while now about the nature of solutions proposed.  And I think what is
happening is there is too much onus on people who don't have capacity, as
of now.

>> The question was for me?  I'm Romina.  Jessica is my colleague here.
But we spend a lot of time together, so people usually confuse.
(laughter).  About our research, we are -- my approach to this issue is
because I work in the regulator of transportation minister in Chile and
during this time, I made my master thesis in about how the data processing
was used in the processing of traffic fines.  So, in that way, we propose
standard based, of course, in data protection principles because the
opportunity of the Smart Cities is persistently an opportunity for
countries to get -- to get better legislation, to improve the frameworks of
data protection, because as Catherine said, the companies know that they
have to fulfill the law.  But, the problem is in Latin America, we have
very lax standards of data protection.  So the standards of the company are
very low.  So, at the ending, fulfilling the law is not the solution.
Because if we wait on parliament or -- I don't know, if to get a better
law, the technology is running day by day.  So there's a responsibility in
the government and the companies when they -- when they start to talk about
the Smart City issue so get better standards to Human Rights.  If they are
not in the specific framework, I think that should be an obligation to
apply them.  So, the research is based in control, transparency, and
security.  But not just transparency like openness of information.  You
know, transparency in how the companies -- how the government gathering and
processing the data of citizen in the Smart Cities. This is very important
if we can address and we can continue to develop the Smart Cities.

>> Any other questions?  No questions.  You have -- Okay.

>> I would just like to come back to the ownership issue.  I really -- it's
Ian Fish again from UK.  It's a lot of the idea and obviously creates
ownership, but coming back to some of what jack said or at least I
understood it and what Amber said as well, is there not a danger that its
ownership is the digitally included and the digitally excluded will
actually be pushed further away?

>> Anyone wants to comment on that?

>> Can I comment?  I'm not sure if I got your question.  What I see -- and
I think we can see that today, those of us that travel a lot, you can see a
difference in some cities how they're managed, especially traffic.  I think
we may start to see something that I mentioned, a new city divide. It's the
cities that you would love to go, and cities that, oh, my God, I have to go
there.  And it's not because the people.  It's because how manage around
the city or you need three hours to get to the airport plus the three hours
you have to be at the airport before, so half a day devoted to the airport.
Something like that.  It happens today in some cities so I'm not sure if
I'm answering your question.  I think we will start to see that but with
the incorporation of technology into the management of a city that will be
more noticeable in some cities than others. So, we may have to see what you
were mentioning before.  I would love to live there, and I would not like
to live somewhere else.

>> We have time for one last question.  Is there any?  Okay. May I ask a
question?  Since you are in the University, and you also involved with
implementation of project on Smart Cities, for example, I have checked that
there is a master course in Spain about Smart Cities.  And I went through
the program, and it was basically IT disciplines and then lots of public
policies.  So all these ethical and Human Rights issues, they were not in
the program.  They were not being discussed.  This is just one example.
Since you're in the University, how do you address these things and also,
you work with global companies.  You, you know, study global examples, but
you have to implement and create a plan for, you know, your context.  So,
how do you manage to do that in this University environment?

>> So, that's a very good question.  So, the challenge for the Smart Cities
is that we have the technology today as the main vehicle, but we say that
there is something that should be all the time in place, which is not
computer science, it's common sense.  Sometimes we want to make something
very complex with technology because it makes some gymnastics for our brain
and it looks fine, but sometimes we need to stop and say, does that make
common sense to implement that?  And that's something that should be all
the time present. But, however, technologies is accelerating some
processes, for example.  Just going to spend time here in Guadalajara to
spend time to renew a permission for your vehicle every year and wait two
hours, so if you have a web portal in the internet that makes that in two
minutes, then you get something better for the city because it makes easier
some things and it's better.  So, with Atropoli, which is very
international, we created something that is MOOCs, which is massive open
online platforms, and we are using the chosen platform for than we are
creating 4MOOCs.  One for metrics, another for Smart Cities, another is
very technological, but we're also looking for the University to open a
master in Smart Cities.  We're thinking for the people that have some
technical knowledge just to know that this is a holistic vision and you
need to understand, the people on the healthcare urban, the people on the
urban development area, the people from the public policies, that's a
challenge. To connect all those people.  And then besides, for example, the
people which is dealing with the open environment usual lip are architects
are civil engineers, they have a very low knowledge of society and how they
can bring something better for that so at the end, it's to connect them, to
learn what technology can bring us benefit and then just empower them.  And
the vision in the Middle East, there should be technology from one company,
a closet technology, there should be something open so we can we'll more
things over that technology.  They should be interoperable, something that
should be there to connect with other solutions, and the challenge for the
cities is the scale.  So usually, we're discussing about IoT but when you
go look for IoT in the internet, that your coffee machine will be waiting
for you when you wake up already with the coffee, an that's a nice picture
that they put.  I don't know if that's smart. But, for the cities, it's not
that.  It's that you have a million lights in the street that should manage
how they want to behave with energy because energy is something that have a
cost, and an impact.  For example, in Mexico, 60 percent of the energy is
just based on fuel.  On oil solution. So, that's not efficient.  We don't
have these plants producing that energy near the city, but somewhere we're
going to pay the invoice at the end.  So the vision should be just very,
very holistic.  And that's a challenge, and that's an opportunity. And
besides that, this is a point to connect with other countries because every
city has different geographic issue, so they have challenge with that in
Smart City.  There is not one solution that can worth everything. There is
one solution that can be adapted and maybe it should be working but if the
people don't create some ownership, they don't embrace a solution, it's not
going to work that's something we're working, and it's very hard even in
the University to have talk with people from different areas of knowledge
takes time because you need to connect the vocabulary and understand how
they work.  That's one opportunity, I think, for Latin America.

>> Okay.  We have one minute.  Any of you want to add something or?

>> And given that we are in the region now, I also want to stress the fact
that the Pacific Alliance Trade Agreement is coming up.  Peru, Mexico,
Columbia, Chile are part of it.  And I think we have looked at the specific
cases.  We have looked most closely, we have in the case of Mexico,
Guadalajara but I think in the general, in the international framework or
the regional, more specifically, these kind of trade agreements will be
fostering digital innovation opportunities and I think this will come with,
for instance, these type of new economies of innovation of sophistication
that are not necessarily based on usage of natural resources which is also
aiming for sustainability and also aiming for Smart City solutions.  So
important to keep in mind the new upcoming agreements that may be providing
some strength to the implementation of Smart Cities, as well as the
business development of intangible assets.  As you mentioned, for instance,
software patents, copyrights.  So I'm also looking forward to the
development of the Pacific Alliance Free Trade Agreement to see what will
be the impact of solutions.

>> In this forum, we have so much young people.  I would like to use the
innovation from a bottom-up perspective, if you have an idea, if you think
that you can make a difference, just bring it to some of the organizations
or governments or Universities that you have around.  Go to your ISOC
chapter or University or to your boss maybe if you work in the government
and bring the ideas.  Maybe if you cannot change the full city, or yes, you
can change something in the whole city but maybe you could do a difference
in part of it and that could be replicated not only in that city, but in
other cities of the region.  Remember, our region is unique.  It's very
beautiful.  It's diverse.  But our problems are also unique.  We have a
very imbalanced distribution of the infrastructure, we have imbalanced
distribution of wealth.  So that is the problem of Latin America.  You
don't find that so blunt in other regions of the world.  So let's share
experiences and let's also use the bottom up approach to solve, make our
cities more beautiful.  Thank you.

>> So, I think that -- Okay. So, something that happens is that the
internet today is something very organic.  There is no country or one
company or one owner that is controlling everything over the internet.
There was some examples where the internet was cut off in some places and
reconnected very fast in other places so in that case, this kind of
cooperation is key between different point of views and standards which are
very important to make everything connect and about more interoperable and
Smart Cities is something that should emerge in that case.  So for Latin
America, the great opportunity is to start cooperation.  Because there is
not how to deal with the government or academic and industry and civil
organizations but there is a lot of experiences and successful cases that
are happening in Latin America, and that's an area of opportunity to
connect not only for these countries but worldwide also to see how it
works.  And it's not about one city.  It's about the planets.  We are not
managing well the resources that we are using.  These economies that we
have today are just creating a big drain on the environment we need to work
together to do that. That's a challenge but I think Latin America has a
great opportunity because we are in some places in a fields we can start to
open and to see how we can do it better.

>> Okay. Anything else?

>> AMBER SINHA: I think in closing, one of the things I would like to
mention, some very encouraging things about having a safe and sustainable
model and resilient that were mentioned, I think one of the things that
Victor mentioned about having open models is you're free to build so those
are very welcome thoughts.  I think the larger fear that a lot of us
looking at Smart Cities in the global have is that it shouldn't end up
being this opaque exclusionary model in which a large part of people are
not able to participate in any way, and the decisions that are taken based
on data within the Smart City framework cannot be question.  So that
opacity is again something which we need to hook at very carefully because
some of these models by their very nature are extremely obtuse.

>> Okay.  Thank you very much.  It's already 1:35 so we have to close it.
And well, thank you for coming.  I hope it was helpful

(applause) (Session was concluded at 1:35 p.m. CST)

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