(standing by.) (Beep) (standing by). >> Hello, everyone. Good evening. Welcome. Has everyone had his drink, something to eat, everyone is comfortable? I'm the founding member of ISOC Poland's chapter of ISOC. And I'm honored, and I'm glad to meet all, so many of you here, and our honored guests. Our polish chapter has been a tradition in ISOC and the closest chapter of ISOC is open meeting in the country where ISOC hasn't been established yet, so I was asked to do the honor. So I am honored to open this session. Our chapter is seen as one of the most active chapters in the region. And we think we are quite successful. We have been established in the year 2000. So it is quite a journey. Let me now pass the floor to the leader of the session, the chair of the session. Would you like to introduce us to the schedule? Maybe this one. >> Good evening, everybody. I'm Raoul, Internet Society. I'm glad to be here with all of you. As these meetings have became a tradition for ISOC and also for ICANN, because the presence of ISOC members and chapters within ICANN community is very important, and this is a good thing for our organization. So it's an opportunity, to meet with many of the people that is in this meeting, and we take advantage of that for having those meetings, having fruitful discussions with our chapter representatives and members. Thank, you everybody, for coming to the meeting. I know that the offer of reception and dinners is very big, so temptation to go to other places is big, so thank you for staying and participating in this meeting after the long day of work for many of you. I will be here until Thursday. So decide what we can discuss in this meeting, if any of you want to contact me for anything, I am available for talking about anything that's, could be a matter of interest for any of you. Thank you. >> Thank you now I ask (inaudible) to take the floor. >> For those of you who don't know me, my name is Walda Roseman and I am the COO of the Internet Society. I'm taking the floor at this point, because I have two very special announcements about this meeting. There are probably more that will reveal themselves, but I'm not aware of them yet. But the two that I'm aware of is that firstof all, we have the honor of having at the head table, sitting next to me, an inductee into the Internet Hall of Fame. The very first class of inductees, Toro, Takahashi-San. (Applause). Takahashi-San is credited with not only bringing the Internet to Japan, but also bringing it to much of Asia. He has workedtirelessly as I think what today we would call an Internetevangelist but he has done it through commercial and other means. So it's just very special to have you here, Takahashi-San. The other special announcement that I have involves someone else, just accidentally sitting here at this part of the table. And that is Ted Mooney. Today is his birthday. (Chuckles). We actually have a cake with a candle. I think we should attempt, since we don't all sing happy birthday the same way, I think we should attempt to. Now you have to make a wish and manage to blow it out in one wish. >> TED MOONEY: Thank you all so very much. (Applause). >> WALDA ROSEMAN: So, please be nice to him. Thank you. >> Thank you Walda. Now, Ted, your name has been called. Now giving you the floor. Thank you, Walda. Ted, please. >> TED MOONEY: Thank you all very much. This is quite n unexpected pleasure. I had hoped to have very many, many more birthdays, and I'm not telling you which one this one is in particular. I have something very short to say. I think this is a smart, dynamic and powerful group. And I think that what we are really looking to do at these meetings is to really consolidate and unleash that strength and that intelligence and that power. There are lots of ways in which (beep) we can do that, in various parts of the world. And I always look forward to the exchange of ideas Last time we met, that I attended, and ICANN, I believe it was in Costa Rica, there were a number of chapter delegates who said that what we would like to do is make sure that we use these meetings to be meaningful. That we discuss those issues that are important to all of us, not just that we update each other on things that are going on in our individual chapters. So I hope that is exactly what we will be doing tonight. And in order to kick that off, I'm going to turn to my illustrious colleague, Markus Kummer, who will then take us through one of the ways in which we can exert some of that influence and intelligence and power that we hope we can, with the information about the world conference on international telecommunications. Markus, if you please. >> I'm also from polish chapter, originally now working as chapter development manager for ISOC. So I welcome you. I'm the one who, whose job is to serve you and help you in whatever way you need us. At this very moment, two things. We have a Webex session. But you are physically here. So there is no need to d it. You are of course welcome, but then please switch off your mic and mute your mic, and switch off your video. Also, when you are using this microphone, put it, be sure that when you finish, you switch it off, and then I am passing the list of participants. Please put your name and your affiliation, E-mail and so on. Thank you very much, and with this I really give to the voice to Markus Kummer. >> MARKUS KUMMER: Thank you, Ted and Jacek, good evening to you all. It is a pleasure to see so many of you here. Yes, this is an important agenda item for us. Wicked as we call it, its acronym sounds a little bit like wicked, it is indeed n important conference ahead of us. As a way of background, the last treaty dates back to 1988. That is indeed a long time ago years back and now in the process of revising it. The 1988 treaty as the ITU keeps telling us pavs the way for liberalization of the Telecom market and indirectly also allowed for the development of the Internet. There is certainly much truth in that, but you could at the same time argue, if you have a liberalized environment, you don't need any treaty to determine the regulation any more. And we are quite happy with the status quo, as based on the 1988 treaty, the Internet indeed was allowed to flourish, and the Internet works. But there is I think a very good argument to say that if no radical change needed. There are positive elements that followed after the Melbourne treaty in '88. I mean there was clearly more transparency, more competition. There was a move to independent regulation, in the Telecom environment. But all these things were not enshrineed in the treaty. So if the revision of the treaty this year brings all these positiveelements to the fore, fine. But you could safely argue governments might decide there is no need for a treaty on regulation at all. And there are precedents. In 1998, the R E CD had a ministerial conference on eCommerce and they decided in their wisdom there is no need for regulation. It might actually be harmful to this new element that was emerging, eCommerce. So it will be better to let it grow and then maybe see later whether there would be any need for regulation. Same thing happening, world trade organization, ministerdecided not to regulate on the trade in the eCommerce. So do we need a new treaty? There is a question one can ask. But I don't think that ministers gathered in Dubai will come to the conclusion that it will be wise not to agree on the treaty as it will be seen a a failure. But that makes this contrast, that the 1998 RECD, and probably (inaudible) did not agree because they could not agree. They agreed not to agree on the treaty, because it would be premature, and might be harmful. Okay, this is a relatively lengthy introduction. (Chuckles. Where are we now? There was a lengthy preparatory process. The last meeting ended last week in Geneva. All the proposals have been put forward, are now assembled in a document. I think there are 250 pages for what should be basically a fairly concise treaty. The last one was less than 20 pages. But there was no substantive discussion on what is needed. I was basically just a very bulky first process to assemble the proposals to agree on the report, that will be put forward to the conference, and it will be then left to governments to decide in Dubai. We have done what I think is some useful work. We have actually looked at all the various proposals, dissected them, and analyzed what kind of impact they would have on the Internet, and I know many of you are on the various lists we have, to inform our members on what is being discussed. The fact is that these are discussions behind closed doors. ISOC, we are sector members so we have access to the documents. We have access to the discussions. But the papers are restricted. They are not publicly available. That's led to some outcry (distorted audio) society. We have discussed (distorted audio) shared information. But we have not associated ourselves (distorted audio) democracy and technology, because we do have access to the documents, and you also have to behave a little bit differently (beep) if in the room differently from when you are outside on the room as you bang on the door to be allowed in. This gives me some introduction to another (beep) flash. Ten years ago we started the process of the world summit on information society and then although it was actually in the general assembly resolution, it was mentioned that civil society, business sector should participate. But to begin with, they are not allowed into the room with governments. Ten years ago, in July, 2002, we started this, the first com in Geneva and there are some veterans of the business process here also in the room. Our chairman, first and foremost, is a veteran, Carlos, Alejandro and many others, you remember these discussions. There were civil society banging on the doors, please let us in. We have a word to say here. It was interesting in the course of theSIS process gradually the doors opened more and more and in the final phase in Tunis people were all in the room, there were no behind closed doors negotiations anymore. However the decisions were still taken by governments. But by then actually the chairman of the final negotiating committee, occasionally he asked representatives of the Internet community maybe to explain a technical detail. So there was a great step forward. Then in Tunis already in Geneva there was general recognition that Internet governance, there was a definition was adopted on Internet governance, that said basically anything, all the processes to do with the physical, logical infrastructure on the use of the Internet is part of Internet governance, and that should involve all stakeholders. The Tunis agenda also recognized as a new stakeholder group the academic and technical communities of this what we like to call the Internet community. However, this has not necessarily transformed into the proceedings of all the international organization. We, I mean, you all hear, attending the ICANN meeting and that truly involves stakeholder groups, governments are involved, businesses involved, of course. The technical community of course. Also private sector in form of the ALAC, many of the chapters are involved in the civil society and the ALAC movement. And the noncommercial use con fit 20 so really all stakeholders are involved in ICAN. When you go back to the ITU, the ITU has not changed its style, its rules of procedures. The ITU is a very established, very venerable international (beep) it is one of the oldest international organizations, was established way back in the 19th century. It reflects the diplomatic proceedings of that time. It has opened gradually. It allows business participants in the form of sector members. We are a sector member, as ISOC. But i is not open insofar that anybody who is interested can participate. And that's basically the view we have of the Internet. Anybody who is interested in standard and develop, in standard and policy development processes can participate. This clearly is not the case of the ITU. The ITU is based on memberships, and member states are the ultimate arbiters of the decision. This is at once with a way, not just the Internet community but also the Internet users want policy development related to the Internet. This year was remarkable, insofar as we had protests in the U.S. on legislation proposed there to basically enforce legislation to protect intellectual property on data and we have the same in Europe on acta, Internet users went to the streets and actually they stop the proceedings. And Internet users are now beginning to shout, hey, what is this conference? I participated, I think, in two meetings in the ITU, where I made the point, there was the world information society they established their principles, and anything related to Interne governance should be dealt with in an open transparent and inclusive fashion. And involve all the stakeholders. But then it was pointed out, no, this was not about the Internet. This was about telecommunications. When you look at what is proposed, what is being discussed, from cyber security to spam to interoperability to termination fees, this is, this falls basically under the definition of Internet governance as efined in Tunis by heads of state, and governments. So that is where we are. Now, last week, the secretary-general of the ITU, and let's give him credit for it, he said he will take it to the member states, and he will propose that they open some of the documents, make them available publicly, and I think presumably the main document, the compilation of all the proposals. But it was clear at the meeting of the working group that not all member states were comfortable with that. It was supported by many, mainly west European governments to really I would like to single out Sweden in particular, they were very in favor of a more transparent process. And I think also, talking to some representatives of the European commission, for instance, they made it very clear,earlier consultation on these issues, that they think it would be counterproductive also for the ITU not to be more open, as the Europeans learned from the Acta process and if that happens also with WKID, I think in the end it would not do much good for the ITU. And I think the secretary-general, he has taken on this message. But it's by no means, cannot take it for given, that the council that will meet in July, early July, will actually follow the recommendation of the secretary-general. So, this is our very very first and important message, basically, to all of you, to all within the ISOC family. Do what you can to talk to your governments, to call for open inclusive and transparent processes. I think in Europe, I think a call has been heard, but I think it still doesn't do any harm to repeat it, to make sure that governments engage in discussing with their stakeholders, and in other countries, maybe governments have not yet heard this call. Also complicating factor is quite often that the guys in the government that go to ICANN things are not involved in what happens in another organization. So there are sometimes different silos within one government. There are different ministry. They don't necessarily have coordination among themselves. Quite normally, when you go to a meeting of an organization, you want the organization to be important, because it makes you important. So the guys that go to ICANN meetings, I think on the whole they want ICANN to succeed, because they are part of the ICANN family, and they want at the success of the organization, for themselves. The same happens of course for the people who go to ITU meetings. I mean, there are people, they go to meeting after meeting of that organization in Geneva year after year, spend all theiworking life in that environment. And clearly, they think, and i is important, don't get me wrong. I'm not belittling by any means the ITU is an important organization. (Beep) we do need(inaudible) also for the Internet. But I said that just to point out, don't necessarily expect that the government has a single view on certain issues. Some of these conferences don't go to the top, because it looks very technical, and very, prime minister or president, necessarily don't know organizations that go on, but governments will take note once there is a newspaper article, demonstrations in the street, then all of a sudden it becomes important. I think with WKID, we have now reached a stage where we have a new thing in the workshop, issues in an ICANN complex, that was back in Costa Rica, and there was very little newspaper articles on it. Since then, the interest really has grown quite dramatically on WKID. Also, maybe another thing is, be realistic. Some of the headlines are counterproductive. WKID, is not about the U.N. going to take over the Internet. WKID is about the new treaty, but basically, defines the policies national governments should follow. That is of course important. If the treaty gives the wrong template for national policies, and that is not a good thing. So but it's not about the ITU taking over the Internet. But there are proposals on the table about... (Distorted audio) but would be a step backward and that would ultimately be damaging for the Internet. (Distorted audio). More in the form of Q and A and interactive dialogue, what can the chapters do? What is your experience engaging with governments? Not a single template. It really depends very much on each national environment, the relationship you have or may not have with your national government. In some cases we know chapters are very closely involved in a policy dialogue with governments. In some other cases, maybe chapter has been newly formed. They may not even have met the government people. But our message basically would be, seek the contacts to your government, find out who is in charge. Find out who is the person in the government who is dealing with the Internet. Through him, find out who will go to the Dubai conference. Offer yourselves as an advisor on Internet matters to the government. We heard, some governments actually have asked, ca you bring us in touch with your chapter in our country? Because we would like to learn from them. And really, some of the chapters (beep) have tremendous contact through their governments. The last ICANN meeting, for those who were there, the president gave a fantastic speech, and what we learned is, they are very close contact with the chapter there. So they take input from the chapter as part of their policies (beep). Fantastic. But of course, we fully understand that, you know, may not be possible in every single country (beep) high level contacts, where the governments are actually keen to have your input. This is I think very much something we can learn from each other. We are planning a series of webinars, that will deepen this discussion, and to see how best to pursue this. But we are clearly, you are our most important ally in this struggle to preserve the Internet as we want it, and to look forward to a future Internet that is based on that very fundamental principles we believe in, to keep it global, interoperable. I don't know whether Karen, is she on line? She is not. She is my colleague who follows these issues very closely if you have an more detailed questions. But I think I've been talking for too long already. I would like to hand back to the chair (beep) and maybe we can engage a little bit (beep) learn from experiences, share best and worst practices. Sometimes you learn more from something that didn't work out, a well as you had hoped for, what went wrong, why didn't the government listen to me when I approached them. So that is certainly more (beep) than happy to engage in dialogue. I'm not the chair. (Chuckles). >> Thank you, Markus. >> Thank you. I don't have very much to add (static) because Markus, as many of you know, and his team, Sally Wentworth and Karen mullberry are doing an excellent job. And it's coming to the attention of a lot of people. There are other ways also that they and we all can benefit from what you are doing. There is a regional preparatory process. That process is such that in your region (static) the positions, some of the key positions will be determined well before the conference in what are called common positions. It's slightly different namesdepending on the region. So engaging early and often is useful. But the main point I want to make is, when you learn things, bringing information back to us in particularly to Markus and Sally and Karen, is veryuseful, because of and despite these regional positions, when they get, and maybe when some of you get to the WKID, it will be usful in gauging what is behind some of the positions. And what some of the fallbacks might be on the ground. That is all I wanted to add. >> Thank you, Walda. Is there anyone who would like to comment? Yes. >> Thank you so much. For the record from ISOC Pakistan which terse information. Is it a small community which is helping the rejuvenation of the chapters in Pakistan, relating to (inaudible) the concern I'd like to share is a bit behind the curtain with what is happening, because you see that sometimes on the front, we see the developed countries, are doing, but to see what the happening in the context of developing world countries especially like my own. What I say is to be considered as any kind of official (beep) or anything and I have not heard this from the government or so forth. It is small observations. There is general movement from western company (beeps) towards Pakistan, I'm referring to Internet companies, supporting efforts whereby they can talk out with the governments (beep) before (inaudible) (background noise) they are in touch with the ITU. There is a possibility that they can also convince wherever they operate in the world to get the message, one level ahead where we cannot reach. This is additional support they are giving out, handing out. To this end I can share is that I've been sharing this information for the past three months with such a small group which is sort of looking over (beep) what concerns us is that, I would like to direct this to Markus Kummer, these are not the only missions going to be at the ITU WKID, these are actually propely designated teams, found out who is going. I'd like to sort of once again, this is not to be interpreted in a negative or positive way. I don't have a position on this. But there is sort of a situation developing which might be used as n example amongst O I C countries, if you have seen through thehuman rights council the different voice for the IOC countries, which is a very large group. It might have a common position which would be concerning, and as I said the other night in theearlier meeting over here, that there needs to be an effort, consolidated effort together where we do get the message out that, in every society there is some form of censorship, there is certain level ofcensorship but -- censorship, certain regimes may use it for specific social values (inaudible) (beep) might use it as a blanket censorship tool and my country has witnessed this before with electronic media. The concern at hand is, there is more to do. Others are reaching out to us. But how to handle the situation, we don't know. We don't have the accessibility, at least from my country we don't have the expertise. We don't know within the near future, a position that our country takes might have an effect on all the developing countries in the region. I can assure you if partnerships there are many countries which follow suit. We set an example for many states. That is why I was referring to there is a small period of time in whichSOC should invest in visiting these countries, gather good firsthand information. The ISOC chapter information in Islam abad, the capital has people from the regulator involved. It also has academics. I believe they file the chapter information or application as well. It might be a good effort to start reaching out. They might not be (inaudible) for the record, ISOC chapter as a whole, Pakistan had its third meeting on the issue, the same meeting with probably the fifth meeting of chapter information, so there is sort of effort, we need some sort of push and help and experience. I can assure you, we can make an impact within the next few weeks if we know what we are dealing with, what is our position as ISOC chapter that we are trying to uphold. >> Thank you. Now there is Alessandro and Stefano. >> Thank you, Stefano from Italy, Italy chapter. In our chapter we have a group that is elaborating on Internet governance. One of the main facts in this month is to try to interact with the government, and this is quite easy in some ways, because I'm representing the government here in ICANN. But is not fully easy. And I explain why. First of all ITU claims to be a multistakeholder organization. But this is not as we understand being multistakeholder. And I' trying to explain. So within ITU, we are lucky that ISOC is accredited, and is doing such a very good work, to try to explain where are the problems, what we should consult, and because the way of woring of ITU is that they do not know the process of public policy development, as we do here, for example, in ICANN. So there are, participating to the working group, the working group for this conference, and then they decided to be transparent in the sense that with the pressure of ISOC and not only, they render these documents available for consultation, but these documents are very difficult to grasp, let's say, because they, there is not a clear plan, that is perceivable. So one should read all of them and is not easy to understand, those that are more critical, those that will pass the exam, and making an example, the idea of setting up an IP registry in ITU is something that was proposed years ago, then since will not be voteded, the will be restored and restored again. There is not a process to say no, this is not good, bad, this idea is finished. So an explanation how to address the crucial points is very very important. Then the representative of the ITU recently wrote a letter inviting all the representatives of the government to participate in the work, but what they are saying is for those of you that represent your country in ITU I would encourage you to increase the involvement of the cities and your countries and your national consultations during the process. I would also hope that your positions and the views recording regarding ITU and the process to review the IT Rs are based on proposal and discussions taking place in the appropriate ITU forum dealing with the subject and not necessarily broad publications, speeches and media reports. So they are against the consultation of the community in order to build up this positions. Also in the speech today he complains of the bad press that is concerning the ITU and the modification of ITRs. So we have to accommodate in a different way of work. And then it is very precious, the initiative of ISOC to inform and to individuate the real problems. Markus mentioned the discussions about cooperation, I'm not on to say much about that, but it is a good idea, that and cooperation is discussed in the ITS, and it is through that secretary-general advice, not to put the cooperation in the IGFs officially but now we have to start something like that, sostarting from in a bottom-up logic, then we have to demonstrate that things are functioning, and that we are able to, let's say, demonstrate that an outside corporation is already function even and those that we may have the real word enumerating number of cases where this is really happening. We have to b patient. We have to continue this discussion and not give up, because otherwise the other side will... >> Thank you, Stefano. Alessandro wants to comment on that. Alejandro. At least I have (overlapping speakers) task for you, because we need to short this comments, right. So please, three, four minutes. Thank you (beep). >> Thank you very much. Almost an hour into the meeting. And still on this first issue. I think we all know a lot of stuff about the ITU and we can continue sharing it, outside this meeting. The ITU's processes are very long one. We are not only concerned about the conference this year, but where is the conference next year and next year, and we have to stop dealing with these things like upcomingevents and have a longer term strategy that continues constantly interacting with this. In that case of the Mexico chapter, the chapters list, concerned with ITU we have actually engaged with the government. We did a rather, I won't say radical but very frank letter to the consultation that I made about the council which is already passed. We have to realize that the times is already surpassing us. Addressing each of the five issues that were put for consultation, we included requests to vote for the closing of the impact center in Malaysia, which is an absolute waste of ITU money, and telling them that, actually good stewardship for the ITU to close some of these initiatives which only come to ridicule and the ITU cannot necessarily win. So preserve the good role that the ITU can have. I think that we have to continue the use of the lists that we have for sharing, the instrument, we have already great, I'm very thankful and recognition for Markus, Sally, Walda, for having these instruments and making them useful. We have now a very great challenge I think (beep) implied in previous speakers to become a resource for our government delegations, even without going to the meetings, where they can, you know, some people in the delegations can listen to us, not necessarily the delegation of (inaudible) why it is not a good idea to get into this, for ITU not to get into useless, that is one more angle here. Here I will go to Markus, my picture of very useful things in diplomacy, but I would also say that we should appear clearly ready to walk out of the process at some point. We have no beef, not enough in our positions when we are always saying we are goin to play by the rules, Stockholm syndrome and we should create enough pressure on our team that they can be more radical if needed or on the other hand not undermined, because they are inside the room (beep). >> Thank you, Alejandro. There was one person to my right. Keep it short, please. I'm giving the floor to Raul, and then I'll give it back to Markus for final comments, because afterwards, there is two more people. Markus, can we agree, afterwards they will approach you, and you will give in person comments. Agree to that? Yeah, thank you. >> Thank you. Ambrose, is my name, from South Africa, we launched a few weeks ago on the IPV6 day, it was an event, SOC in South Africa. I want to share my experience before Markus comment how we can engage the government. I work for the government. I represent the government. ISOC, more driven even from the government side because there was a need for us who can work with people in the role and we even had to write the letter of recommendation, but all depended on how the members approach the government. My advice is you need to understand your local politics, and understand who the drivers are, and then you approach them in the language we understand. Normally governments, positional approach initiative. If your person understand local politics it will always be easy. We appreciate the relationship we are having with ISOC. We already start a discussion locally, and we are waiting to get their comments, so they can be incorporated into the process. Not all governments are hosted the process of the discussion, but all depends on how the local Internet users are involved in local politics and approach their government. Thank you very much. >> Thank you. That was an interesting comment from the opposite side. (Overlapping speakers). >> I have a quick remark on -- (overlapping speakers) I'msubraman from ISOC, I have a brief comment. He was saying that the government of India, that when the government of Pakistan -- okay. When government of Pakistan does something wrong, orcreates a wrong policy, other Islamic countries follow. But in matters convenient to government, it is not only other Islamic countries that would follow Pakistan's example but also in countries like India would follow Pakistan's examples, because it's convenient to follow Pakistan's example and shut down (inaudible) government so it is all the more important to pay attention to what is happening in Pakistan, and other countries, especially recently, we have to see if Pakistan and other countries, and what other diplomatic initiatives hav been happening. I have a question to Markus. ITU being a treaty based organization, is that treaty permanent? How permanent is the treaty? Is there any point of time, under any circumstances on any grounds is the treaty ever reviewed? And if it is reviewed and if it is to be proposed that the treaty be reviewed, who has to propose and can it be done? >> Thank you. There is one more person. Please keep it very short. Introduce yourself, please. >> Hello, from the Brazilian Internet chapter, ISOC chapter, this is a member of our financial oversight council. So I am here under her vigilant eyes. It's very quick. Markus, there is a site called W C IT.Org which has nothing to do wKS and is trying to publish drafts of the documentation as it becomes available for the public. It is working nicely. PB64 it was there the day practically to us already. It is an interesting thing to visit regularly. I'm trying to make sure that ISOC -- we say Esoc inPortuguese -- is absolutely sure of its mandate or mission, which is far broader than for instance ICANN. Or the ITU issues. We are far more ample than that. No? We are, the organization the network of the organization which can deal with many of the issues of Internet governance which has been discussed since Tunis, since even before Tunis. We should take this into account. And be courageous, to even propose things, to be pro positive and not just say don't touch anything and beware of the ITU. We have to go beyond that, I think, it's the time we should do that. Within our countries, and ISOC as a whole. I have a very complete example today. As you know (inaudible) trying to meddle in IPV6 deployment. I asked today at the ICANN board meeting with NCSG, what would ICANN do regarding this issue? Because after all, ICANN is the coordination of names, numbers and protocols. And of course live during its entire life under the IPV4 protocol. IPV6 is a very new experience for ICANN. The response was that ICANN has nothing to do with this. Well, here is ISOC doing all it can to promote IPV6. We are confronted with this from S B I that IPV6 is going to create terrible troubles for them. Who should handle this as a policy issue? ICANN says it's not their purview. It's an issue for ISOC. That's an example I would give to you. Okay? >> Thank you very much, Raul, would you like to comment on, final comment, please? >> Yes, I think that maybe ISOC staff could produce a set of more specific recommendations for working in WKID, with them, and government, trying to raise the main points, because there are too much dialogue and not so materials elaborated but separately we need something more simple for working at the local level. The second comment that I think it is important to know what chapter needs and member needs in order to work in your own environments. Let us know how ISOC staff, ISOC team can help you, in your work, what you need for working on WKID, specifically on this topic. One recommendation is that is it important that we make people from government to talk among themselves, because in the people that are usually attend ITU meetings is not the same people that attend other meetings at other forums. In fact, in some countries, I know many countries that have strong policies in personal data protection and privacy, and some countries are supportings in WKID process positions that could have impact on privacy and data protection, that against the policies that their own governments have in, so I think is it important to talk with governments, in order to make them to work as among themselves, and have a country, a national position. This is very important, I think. That is all my remarks. >> Thank you. Now giving the floor to Markus. >> MARKUS KUMMER: Thank you and thank you all for your thoughtful comments and how could I not agree with our chairman. Exemplary recommendations. We basically, yes, we will try and push that more to the fore. But clearly, what we would like to come out of Dubai is some strong language on transparency, on competition, on independent regulation, and on the multistakeholder approach, on all theseissues. This is what is clear, for instance, on cyber security. That shall be dealt with in cooperation with all stakeholders. We as ISOC, we manage to get that in, into the Europeanregional proposals, so on cyber security the Europeans say it should involve all stakeholders. Raul, made the strong point about various government silos I had mentioned in my introductory remarks. But it is a good way for the chapters actually to break through. If you approach the people you know in government, dealing with the Internet, draw their attention to that, they may not even be aware that this conference is on the horizon, because you expect governments to coordinate, but they don't always do that. This is an important advice. Thanks also to Ambrose from Uganda, that was very helpful. His insights from government and the chapter perspective, I think this is something we can learn from. Well, censorship, yes, we are aware of that. Many governments who don't like the free flow of information would like to use the ITRs to clamp down on that, and to impose their views of what, one very big government likes to call the harmonious Internet, you know, only nice information there which doesn't criticize governments. And our position on that is very very clear. I mean, we are fo the free flow of information. And the Internet, the very basic underlying architecture of the Internet protocol is closely linked to free flow of information and human rights principles. I mean, the architects of the Internet embedded that in the very protocol. You cannot say the same about telephony. The ITU constitution actually allows for government interference in communication, but there we talk about telephony, that you know, it can interrupt it, which is between two points. But the Internet is more than that. The Internet is a network where everybody has access to information. Our position is very clear to that, how we can do more to outreach, yes, we have to try. We have our regional bureau directors in all continents. And yes, I think he is here and listening to the recommendations, but we do have a common position. Let's be clear on that. Yes, and many good points were made, definitely, Stefano, don't give up. Yes, we have to continue, we will per se veer and Alejandro's point is very well-taken, we do have a need for along-term strategy. Is it not over on the 16th of December and i is over. No, next year we have policy forum and the following year plus ten, we don't know what this will decide but there will definitely be new challenges ahead. So this is now a rallying cry, let's make sure WKID will notderail the Internet, but we need to build on that, to develop a longer term strategy, and' as an organization are talking -- we a an organization are talking about that and we will definitely work about that, and also offer our opportunities to engage in that thought. This discussion was extremely helpful. And let's build on that and for sure, yes, and Carlos, let's be courageous. Let's be brave. And also we were discussing, just came a call with the executive team for our business plan, and clearly, mentioning the discussion we had on the panel yesterday on enhance cooperation, I think a fellow mentioned it, we can be actually very proud of what we have done, what we have achieved a a community, how we have improved our proceedings within the various organizations. The processes we have developed as a community, it is really something to be proud of. We have done a lot since Tunis. Other organizations have not necessarily followed through. Essentially, I would refrain from judging organizations as such but it is essentially a clash of cultures. We represent the Internet community and they have developed a different culture than the culture, the traditional culture of international organizations, which is rooted in the19th century. Yes, let's work towards bridging these gaps. Let's be nice. Also let's be courageous. And let's continue the discussion. >> Thank you, Markus. (Applause). (Inaudible). >> That is a hard topic to follow. I'm not going to follow it just yet. I'd like to encourage everybody to participate in the webinars we will be doing in the future on the WCIT process and how each and every one of you can assist locally, educating and helping to outreach to the people in the government and policymakers, on issues of real importance to the Internet. Markus will be leading that and the members of his team. Again I encourage you all to please participate in those, announcements will be going out shortly. Since I have all of 15 minutes to conduct what was going to be a lively discussion on a number of topics on which you are all interested, let me first mention a couple of topics in which I'm interested, if I may. I hope all of you know that our director of chapters, Ann Lord is taking personal time and will be leaving for some period of time, at least a year. We would like very much to replace her with someone of import from the community. So I'm asking you to please put youcollective and individual heads together on this, and help us fin a director of chapters that is going to be filling Ann's shoes and taking us all to that next level of support for all the great work that you all do. I'm also interested in helping develop our resources in Asia as Ann is leaving that position as well. So chapter support position in Asia is going to be critically important. We all know theenormous potential and growth of that region, and its enormous diversity. We are very interested in helping fill support position in Asia. While these topics may be near and dear to my heart, I hope that these are near and dear to your heart as well, because we really want to build out this chapter support team to make sure that you are able to do the work that you get the resources from us and staff to continue to do what you do. Lastly, and while I'm not going to ask everybody to voice their opinion here, Markus alluded to this and I think it is very important, we are starting our strategic planning process. I know that every one of you have some ideas about what we should be doing strategically. What are the key issues that the Internet Society shoul be engaged in, in 2013 and in 2014? As I'm sure you kno our executive staff have their ideas. But as importantly and perhaps more importantly, we want your ideas. We will be issuing a survey, a short one, so that you can all provide us in a formal process, your opinions and thoughts about what we should undertake strategically, but I encourage you all in a process to let me know personally, and I can help compile some of that information. I'm hopeful you won't all do it tonight. But in the coming days and weeks, I want to make sure that your voices are part of the voice of the Internet Society. That gives us ten minutes left in our meeting. So I have a wonderful idea how to spend this ten minutes. Rather than bringing up a discussion, I'd like to know who everybody here is attending. We haven't introduced ourselves. Have we? I think it should take at least ten minutes to do that. In truth, I think it is important that we all stand up, say who we are, where we are from, so that we can recognize each other in future meetings so that we can talk to each other over E- mail and other forum, so that we can exchange these ideas. I'm going to ask Tracy if you would stand up and please because we only have ten minutes, tell us your name, what your position i and where you are from. >> Tracy, vice chair, ISOC (inaudible) chapter, thank you. >> Carlos at fontso, I'm board member of (inaudible) secretary director of small research N G O in Rio de Janeiro and chair of the born again chapter of ISOC in Brazil. >> Margarita, member of the board of ISOC Brazil and also I'm a member of research group in university Rio de Janeiro. >> Alejandro (inaudible). >> ISOC Italia. >> Stefano trumpy, ISOC, Italy. >> (Inaudible) organizational member, also involved in (inaudible) member of ISOC JP, which just applied for the chapter. >> I'm (inaudible) Secretariat for ISOC J P. >> My name is (inaudible) also ISOC J P. >> Chair of ISOC Finland. >> German national, global member of ISOC since 1993. In recent years I was (inaudible) networks but right now I am n independent contributor and I'm vouched to be more active in ISOC. >> I'm Frederick, director of European bureau of ISOC. >> I am individual member of ISOC. I am member of ALAC and ICANN. >> I am chair of ISOC Morocco. >> Catrinn, ISOC member (inaudible) just applied for (inaudible). >> I'm an ISOC global member, also with the team from Germany. And Dave (inaudible) ISOC member in Germany. >> Barack, chairman (inaudible). >> I am an organizational member and chair of ISOC, German ISOC chapter. >> Mohammed from ISOC Senegal, secretary of ISOC. >> Philippe Sanchez from ISOC Mexico. >> English chapter of the Internet Society. >> Puerto Rico, ISOC Puerto Rico. >> ISOC JP. >> Hans Deetler chairman of ISOC Germany, chapter in Germany and also helping ISOC with E M S system, so if you have questions, don't hesitate to ask me. >> Vice chair of ISOC Finland. >> ISOC, try to revive the chapters. >> Victor, Internet Society next generation leader, secretary-general of ISOC chapter. >> Vice chair of ISOC Switzerland chapter. (Inaudible) realized, excuse myself, I was from ISOC chapter (inaudible) information. >> I'm the new president of ISOC Quebec. Since 2006. >> I'm from a small community which has been involved with the chapters membership at ISOC called the facilitation committee, we are in the process of creating three chapters in (inaudible) already included in the chapter delegation list and the others are coming in the next few months. Thank you. >> onorary chair of the French chapter, member of the board of the chapter of San Francisco bay area. >> ISOC Russia information. >> My name is Alex, founding partner. >> I was a secretary-general of ISOC beeninfrom 19 (inaudible) currently board of this chapter. >> (Inaudible). >> President of ISOC India (inaudible) election there. I have applied for a new gTLD. >> I'm Anna Lisa, vice chair of the San Francisco bay ISOC, include Silicon Valley, since we are an A L S I'm a liaison to the yurla of ALAC. >> Glen Mcknight and I'm from Ontario, Canada, I'll be woring towards trading a chapter. >> Let me quickly read those who let's say join us remotely. From Norway, Tobago, Uganda, from Pakistan, from Belgium, where he comes from, he just joined. We welcome Joly, who made it. Accompanied by Mary Kay caption, also like to read the captioning. Then we have Pacific islands chapter chair. Paul, our staff member director of the North American office. Brazil, Belgium, our newly elected board of member. Board of Trustees. Also on line, Azerbaijan. Welcome everybody. >> That's everybody. (Cheering and applause). >> Yes, thank you, there is one person we have not recognized here. And for those of you who on Sunday evening enjoyed the meal, the imbidement and this evening, are enjoying it again. And we hope will stay and continue to, I think that it's Ann who made sure that the Webex and the video and everything runs well. We can thank Kevin Craemer. Kevin, will you please... (Applause). Kevin, I think we are all convinced can do anything and he can do it extremely well. So thank you, Kevin. >> Thank you, we proceed to the groups after. >> Thank you, madame chairman. I know that we didn't get to all the topics we might have discussed. But I think we can all agree that our participation in the WCIT process is critical this year. And I don't think it was a bad thing that we spent as much time as we did on discussing that and learning from each other and I'm very hopeful that in the coming weeks and months we will continue this process of learning from each other, supporting each other and our local processes, and prevailing as the meeting takes place. And we put together a strategy that will take us beyond. Madame chairman, thank you very much. >> Thank you very much. Thank you very much all for such a big attendance. Thank you for introducing. It was really a nicemeeting to have you here all. And for me it has been a pleasure. It was a pleasure to have my part in this meeting. Please let's have a nice smile for the group, since some of the nice treatment, foods and drinks are left, so please, so we can have our feast. Thank you. >> Before leaving, let me thank Sylvia for being so kind to chair the meeting. >> Thank you, Raul. Now, please someone -- >> You can sit here. >> We stay here and the group will join us, behind, please. Perfect. Thank you. (End of session at 2:02 p.m. CST).