MIRABAI: Testing testing.

>> Hi, there!

JOLY: Hi. My audio working?

>> Yes, sounds good. My audio okay? Yeah, I hear you fine. You
hear me?

JOLY: Yeah. So I just sent you an email five minutes ago,
saying... Oh, install this program. Did you get that?

>> I did, and I tried, but I'm on a Mac, and it won't accept
it.

JOLY: Okay. The only way you can work it with a Mac is to open
the transcript page. And then sort of crop it

>> I have a Mac version, actually.

JOLY: And let it run. What I have been doing previously... And
I'll show you...

>> I probably needed a bit more lead time for this, I think.

JOLY: That's the whole point of the call. Just let me get rid
of stuff here. I just literally came in the door, because I've
been live streaming a cybersecurity conference all day. I had
to be up at the crack of dawn to get set up.

>> Okay. I realize that you do a lot of these.

JOLY: I'm just wondering -- we can do some kind of
workaround... Where you can share screen with me via Skype. I
can put the captions on top and throw it out to the Zoom.
Where there's a will, there's always a way with this stuff.
I'm actually gonna switch on... Resume my recording here, just
for the sake of it. Oh, here in the chat is the Mac link for
Afloat. I didn't know such a thing existed.

MIRABAI: Hopefully it'll work.

JOLY: She sent it to me. Hang on. She sent it to me.

>> We've got the captioner, MKK, is it?

MIRABAI: Yep, that's me.

JOLY: Yeah. So I just posted this in chat here. Which is a Mac
link in the Zoom chat. So if you want to just have a go with
that... And see if it works for you... I mean, I did a thing
yesterday with the Accessibility NYC and they were on a Mac
and they just said there isn't one for Mac.

MIRABAI: There is one for Mac, and he tried it, but he said it
didn't work with Slides. So he decided to just do it the old
way.

JOLY: Anybody on the call can just install this and just be
overlaying captions on what they're doing.

>> I'd love to have a talk with you at some other time about
all these options. That would be really, really good. I'm
just... Seeing...

JOLY: So now you'll see... When I do this...

>> I'm not... Oh, hold on. Okay.

JOLY: I shared the wrong screen.

>> Okay. So now we've got a split screen.

JOLY: But you see there's captions on there.

GUNELA: Yeah, absolutely. That's great.

JOLY: And the thing about this software is -- one of Mirabai's
fellow stenographers that made it, Stanley. And he's yet to
sort of develop it. And he's kind of proprietary about it, so
we're waiting for him to, you know, pull his finger out.

GUNELA: While he's doing the captions, he's listening to what
you're saying about this. Okay.

JOLY: No, he's not doing the captions. Mirabai's doing the
captions.

MIRABAI: Hi! Yeah, Stan is a friend of mine.

GUNELA: Because... Hello, Mirabai. Okay.

JOLY: So Mirabai is the sort of... Prime mover of the Open
Steno Project. You know. Which is... To make Open Source
stenography software available. Previous to that, if you
wanted stenography software, it would cost you thousands of
dollars. And then they've got DIY hardware methods as well for
making the keyboards. And I've got video of her presenting on
it in the past.

GUNELA: Wow. So that's good.

JOLY: And there's a community there, of stenographers.

GUNELA: Okay. And... This is potentially huge, really.

MIRABAI: I hope so!

JOLY: Mirabai hopes so.

GUNELA: (laughing) Yes, I can imagine. Is that better? No, not
really.

MIRABAI: Looks fine to me.

JOLY: So the thing is that the way it is now -- we'll lose it
if... If you start sharing screen. You see what I mean?
Because I think only one person can share a screen at a time.

GUNELA: Okay. So if we get more people on, and with Zoom... I
mean, it automatically goes to the person speaking, right?

JOLY: Well, yes. The thing is -- what you're looking at is my
screen. And I can pin anyone on. And I can -- I'm just gonna
stop share now. And I'm gonna go "share screen". And I'm gonna
pick... Desktop one. Share computer sound as well... That's
interesting. When I do it... This is something that... It's
always different. Oh, I see. Yes. Yeah, it doesn't give... I
lose... It's peculiar that I lose my second -- I'm running on
a three-screen setup. And so, you know, I normally have, you
know, the Zoom on the middle screen, the active speaker on the
second screen, and so I was trying to get the full active
speaker. I mean, I can take -- I can go speaker view. Oh yeah.
There we go. I can go speaker view, like that. And then go
full up, like that. You see what I mean?

GUNELA: Wow, okay.

JOLY: And get speaker view. But, you know, if you went "share
screen" now, it would say to you -- you can't share screen,
because someone's already doing it. Or it would stop my screen
sharing.

GUNELA: Okay. I'm just going to be passive here, Joly.

JOLY: Have you got slides? You do, right?

GUNELA: No.

JOLY: Okay. Well, in that case, it's academic. I thought maybe
you had slides.

GUNELA: No. I thought that it was going to be fairly informal.
And I know you...

JOLY: It is informal.

GUNELA: Yes. But then I didn't really have any more time.
So... I'm just going to read from notes.

JOLY: Yeah.

GUNELA: So it will be... It won't... It will flow. It will
just be reading from a document. And then hopefully there'll
be a few questions. I thought we were starting about ten
minutes ago.

JOLY: 6:30. Well, we were hoping that Judith was at least
gonna show up.

GUNELA: Yeah.

JOLY: And I'm quite happy to have a one on one...
Conversation. You know, and to talk a little bit first about,
you know  -- you asked me about how it was going with Paul.
And so... The idea of the calls was that we'll see who's out
there. Obviously we need new blood to, like, be active. And
that Michael Burkes, he doesn't have the capacity. And
neither, it seems, does Mark Urban. And so I thought... Well,
the only way we're gonna find out is if we do something. And
so if we meet regularly, then we'll see who comes out of the
woodwork. And so far, not many people have come out of the
woodwork. We know about Glenn and Judith. Glenn has never
actually joined a call. Judith has been on a couple. And we've
had a guy called Fred, out of Ghana, who has been our most
regular visitor. You know, attendee. And he's just a young guy
who's just kind of interested. You know what I mean? And then
there was another guy, came on from Kenya, who was blind. And
that was the week I had Navid on. And Navid did a very good
presentation. One of Navid's points was that they managed to
get the government going by pointing out that the tax --
online tax forms were not accessible, and therefore the
government was losing out on money. And this shook the
government. They then decided to get interested in web
accessibility and everything. And finance them. So he took
this to heart. And then got onto, like, the Kenya chapter, and
started rattling the cage on the Kenya chapter. I'm a member
of the Kenya chapter, so I see this. To, like, engage with the
government. It's gone a little quiet. But he's certainly got a
little ball rolling there. And I think there's certain levers
that people learn, that they can pull. Another guy came on
from Pakistan, one of Navid's colleagues, who was also blind.
I think like a prime mover -- I think Mohammad. And to be
honest, that has been it. But... But at the same time, what we
do every week is, by practicing doing accessible calls, we're
learning as we go along, and it's a process. And then I think
the people do -- some people do watch the recordings.
Afterwards. Hopefully. When I post them. But I know that we
have some good people in the chapter. I mean, obviously this
is Cynthia's people that are the members. They're all old
school. And so maybe they're just... They're past their active
days or whatever. You know what I mean? It's kind of like...
It's like Michael Burkes is really... Compliance is his thing.
And creativity is not so much. You know what I mean? On the
other hand, I see that there are these accessibility Meetups,
and there's Toronto, there's one in Chicago, there's one here
in New York, a strong one. There's one in DC. That are going
on. Which are technically proficient, and work on ARIA and
things like that. And WCAG and working groups, and...

GUNELA: Are they through ISOC?

JOLY: No. I'm saying -- this is like a kind of independent
movement of accessibility activism. Which has the... Whatever
you call it. The short code. Mirabai, give me... What's the
word for that?

MIRABAI: a11y?

JOLY: Yeah, but what do you call that as a term?

MIRABAI: Argh, I forget.

JOLY: Yeah, she forgot. She'll come up with it in a minute.
There's a term for when you collapse all the letters with a
number. I remember Mirabai... I notice you always mistype it.
When someone says it, too. You also put an extra syllable in
it. Anyway, so a11y means accessibility. It's short for
accessibility. And so if you follow that tag on Twitter,
you'll see there's quite a lot going on. And lastly, I used to
shoot the WordPress Meetup here, and I'm on the WordPress
Slack. And I watch what goes on. The amount of work that
people put into making WordPress accessible. The amount of
detail and labor and everything just blows my mind. How deep
and hard into the nitty-gritty these people... And I'm sure
the same thing's going on up at the WC3 and and other places.
That there are people... And somehow you would think that as
far as web accessibility and internet and network
accessibility goes that the Internet Society would be the
natural home for these people, and yet somehow we can't
quite... We haven't managed to find the hook to quite pull
them in. Now here's Judith. So, Judith... Are you on? Can we
hear you? Can you hear us?

JUDITH: Yeah.

JOLY: Oh, she's on her phone.

GUNELA: Hi, Judith. How are you?

JUDITH: So how do I turn off my video?

JOLY: We like video of you walking along.

GUNELA: We can see you from below.

JUDITH: Yeah, I know. But I...

JOLY: Yeah, you are cracking up a bit. Maybe you should switch
off your video.

JUDITH: Yeah, the camera has you looking up. I'm looking how
to do that. Where is the thing, Joly?

JOLY: I don't know. I don't even know what you're on. You're
on your iPhone 5S? I have no idea.

JUDITH: Yeah, here we are. I found it.

JOLY: Okay. Now here's Fred. See? We're all just showing up.
So... Fred, this is Gunela, who's in Australia. Fred is in
Ghana.

JUDITH: Fred is our usual. Joly, who else have you gotten in
the past?

JOLY: Well, that's the thing. I talked about Mohammad in
Pakistan. This is not a good time for Pakistan. You know. So I
just kind of gave a lengthy introduction, where I just talked
about the calls and how we should... How there should be --
there are people active in accessibility, and they're not with
the Internet Society. We should be looking for ways to involve
them. And I'd like to really -- because we don't have that
much time -- is to actually now throw it over to Gunela to
talk about the report you did before. What came from that and
what you're doing now.

GUNELA: Okay. Thanks so much, Joly.

JOLY: I'm gonna mute.

GUNELA: Okay. So shall I start?

JUDITH: Okay. I'm gonna go on the... (inaudible) let me turn
off the (inaudible)

GUNELA: Okay. (no audio)

JUDITH: Okay. Can you hear me?

GUNELA: Yes.

JUDITH: Oh, good. I didn't get disconnected. That's good.
Hopefully the quality is better now. Okay. Everyone was
breaking up.

GUNELA: Shall I start?

JOLY: Yes. I muted myself. Yes. Go.

GUNELA: Okay. All right. The change and... Probably in the
middle of the night for you, so I appreciate you coming on...

JOLY: You're breaking up, slightly, Gunela, now. I wonder why
that is.

GUNELA: I don't know.

JOLY: So try again.

GUNELA: Okay. So the Internet Society has supported a new
project, and it's an accessibility toolkit, to link Internet
usage by people with disability to key international policies
and programs. So hopefully this will be an impetus to continue
working on implementing various policies. To increase
accessibility. And the background is that the Internet Society
has had a statement. The Internet is for everyone. And
obviously that includes people with disability. I wrote an
issues paper in 2012 for ISOC which was called Internet
Accessibility: Internet Use by Persons with Disability. And
that outlined policies, issues, and ways for every part of the
Internet community to contribute to a more accessible
Internet. Now, this project will extend that original issues
paper to show practical impact that the Internet has for
people with disability. Some of the positive aspects, the
barriers, and how to overcome them through policy and
international actions. And as we know -- we've heard many
times -- is that there's well over a billion people, one
billion people, who have a disability. And 80% live in
developing countries, according to the World Health
Organization. So that means that connecting the next billion
involves bringing people with disability online. Otherwise
you're not really bringing the billion online that you want.
And the UN Sustainable Development Goals for education,
health, employment, and reducing inequality reflect a social
model of disability. And that's really important. Because it
means to reduce barriers, societal and attitudinal changes
need to happen. And it's not really fixing the individual with
disability. And that's why these overall policies and programs
on an international level, going to a regional and national
level, are very important. So the concept for this project is
to develop a multimedia package, and that should create
awareness in a different way of the positive aspects of
Internet usage by people with disability, but set very much
against a policy background. It will present personal stories
of people who have used technology to make a difference to
their own lives, and the community in which they live. Each
personal story or case study will link to key international
policies, programs, and instruments, and this will include the
Marrakech Treaty, accessibility and ICT public procurement,
the UN convention on the rights of persons with disability,
and the W3C web content accessibility guidelines. And the
stories are likely to also illustrate how there needs to be a
lot more done. So individuals with disability and
representatives from companies, NGOs, and governments, as well
as possibly beyond the Net and brand recipients could be
featured. And we're trying to have the various regions of the
world as we do this. So the impact of the package is to build
awareness in the Internet community of people with disability,
their needs, and how the Internet can meet those needs. And
also to build awareness in the Internet community of
international policy and programs on Internet accessibility.
And finally -- but very importantly -- to create understanding
by Internet Society staff of accessibility through interaction
during the development of the package.

JUDITH: I have a question, when you're ready.

GUNELA: Yeah, okay.

JUDITH: So my question is -- this is all great, but as you
know, we keep banging our heads against the wall for ISOC to
do anything with accessibility, as a corporation, or
captioning of other things, or with having all the videos and
all that stuff -- being accessible. And that's not really
happening. Where do you see this going?

GUNELA: A very good question. I am hoping that this project
will be different from previous ones, where it got... It was
something useful that got put on the website, and then didn't
really move anywhere further. There needs to be understanding
by ISOC staff of the importance of accessibility, and
interaction by the Internet community as a whole. And I think
that if we get support from champions in the senior management
of ISOC, maybe this time there will be a difference. Because
it's water on a stone. Gradually, gradually that stone gets
moving. Is that an answer, Judith?

JUDITH: Well, it was helpful. But we always have champions.
You know, Cathy has always been for it, but never has done
anything. The problem is they put -- ISOC puts a person in
charge, who's not really helpful. And we get nowhere, and she
holds no meetings, and we get nowhere, and it's very
frustrating. And this is why I stopped doing accessibility
issues with them. Because you get nowhere. I stopped wanting
to bang my... After a while, banging your head against a wall,
you just stop.

GUNELA: I agree with you. I agree. Yes. Hello, Glenn. How are
you?

JOLY: Is your mic working, Glenn?

JUDITH: Hi, Glenn.

JOLY: We're interrupting his dinner. I can tell. He's got his
headphones on now. He can hear us. I'll just -- to follow up
on what Judith was saying, that she also -- it's not just that
ISOC hasn't been doing a lot, but there are other places where
he's managed to make a difference, such as ICANN. And so the
more... So she's been throwing her seed on more richer ground,
as it were. So I think it isn't just engagement. It's the fact
that she managed to find engagement elsewhere. And then I also
-- as far as the video goes, I feel that if I had my shit
together, I would have put in for a grant, so that every
webcast was captioned. You know, I could have put in for a
Beyond The Net, on behalf of the Disabled and Special Needs
Chapter. You know what I mean? As I will do, to pay for
Mirabai, who's currently getting paid out of ISOC NY fund. But
I'm expecting to recoup that. The captioning on these calls
from Beyond The Net, from a small grant. Yes, go ahead.

GUNELA: Yeah, no. This is an official Meetup, which is being
recorded, right, Joly? So this is going to be distributed
to... Online, right?

JOLY: As have them all, except the ones where really there was
nothing of great value. Or we were talking shit about people.
I don't want... Ha-ha. But yes. I mean, I've just been
publishing it basically to the ISOCNet Group. But there is a
collection of recordings, and there are some things which I
was thinking to take and put them on the ISOC YouTube, such as
Navid's presentation, which was excellent, and maybe some of
this one, perhaps. A little edited.

GUNELA: Yeah. I mean... I think that we need to be clear as to
what is going to be recorded and put online for sharing in the
community. And what is an informal chat about the mechanisms
of the project. I think they are two different things.

JOLY: To me, within the Disabled and Special Needs Chapter, we
should have a dialogue, and in terms of accessibility, people
-- to know about that dialogue, who can't necessarily be here
now, all the time, that they should be able to basically see
the to and fro. And so, as I say, basically I don't put it on
the YouTube or anything. I just say... Okay. Here it is,
within the ISOC... Here is yesterday's recording, of
yesterday's transcript, yesterday's call. And maybe some of it
might be -- well, someone's got something to disagree with.
But I'm hoping it'll happen, so we at least get some kind of
dialogue going on. As far as projecting the Internet Society
on Disability, I'm hoping that we can cream some of it off.
And I say... With coherent, uninterrupted presentations like
we had from Navid. Are excellent. And at the same time, we
could... We should be doing kind of more... In terms of, like,
presenting -- not just on this issue, but on issues generally
-- one of the things that is kind of changing, I've managed to
move the mountain slightly, is that historically, the only
time ISOC presents itself is when it presents itself to the
Board of Trustees. You know. At the Trustee meetings. And they
said -- oh, you can't record that. You can't stream that. And
that's the only time we have the staff say... Okay. Here's all
the work we did in the last year. And that's the only time you
would ever be able to find out what the hell is going on. So
there's a kind of... Ridiculous thing where ISOC kind of
doesn't tell its story very well, except outwards. But only
inwards. You know what I mean? Within the organization. But I
take your point. That this is -- the point is that... We have
to have a conversation. Around accessibility.

GUNELA: Yeah. Look, Joly. All I say is that... As you know,
I've been advocating on accessibility for... Well, I've been
working in the field for 25 years now. And with ISOC for the
last... I don't know. 15, 18 years or so. And... I've been
advocating for training of ISOC staff, I've been trying to
advocate for an accessible ISOC website, and I've presented a
variety of strategies to do so. And the last response was ISOC
suggesting that I do this particular project. I did not apply
for this project.

JUDITH: Right. So, Gunela, that's exactly what I was saying.
Is that... It's very hard to get ISOC to do anything. Which is
why I stopped pushing them. And started pushing ICANN, because
we got a lot of movement and traction with them. And then when
you get movement and traction, and you get your ideas adopted,
you'd rather go with them for your volunteer efforts, because
you're getting movement. And the captioning is one example.

GUNELA: And I agree, Judith. That the way that ICANN went
about ensuring that its website was accessible was excellent.
ICANN said: Okay, we need to do something. So ICANN went
through a tendering process, they did a specification, which
involved some people from the accessibility committee in
ICANN, and I was involved with that. I was involved with
interviewing the shortlist of tenderers, and discussing that
with a key ICANN staff member, and as I said, there were quite
a number of people from the accessibility committee involved
with that. And as a result, it wasn't doing remedial work on
the accessibility of the website or lack of. It was actually
starting from scratch, looking at the remediation required,
but at the same time, that company educated the web staff
about how to consider accessibility into the future. So it's
not this one-off approach where, okay, you hire a company that
states that they know about accessibility, the website gets
done, hopefully with accessibility included, and then... And
forgets. Forget to do the alternative text, forget the
structures.

JOLY: I'm on...

GUNELA: ICANN needs to do. As Judith said, they're on that
path.

JOLY: You're breaking up a little bit, Gunela. So I'll just
step in and say that... You know, I think that to some extent,
Judith is spiking the last ball, and what she is actually
talking about is Lia, who basically volunteered to take the
job, and I think Lia actually ran into a bit of a wall,
personally. I know that she had a death in the family. There's
all kinds of things that have been going on with her. Apart
from... She has to look after twins and she's got a whole
bunch of other stuff that she has to do. And then the same
thing with... You know, which I'm finding too, which is apart
from Judith, who is a champion -- the champion of champions --
we didn't get a lot more... You go to the people, you go on
the group and say... Okay, who's ready to do something? And
there isn't a lot going on within the chapter on our side. So
at the same time, what we're seeing now is... Is the
redevelopment of the website. There's a lot of effort going
into that. I just learned yesterday on the North American
Chapter Call that Dan York has now been taken off social
media. They've got new social media people, so that Dan can
work on the multilingual aspect full-time, and I'm pretty sure
that multilingual is an aspect of accessibility. And there is
conversation. The time is right now, where maybe they are
ready to look at this kind of stuff seriously, while they're
redoing the whole website. Do you have any feedback on that,
Gunela?

GUNELA: Well, I had a look at the beta site, and the... And I
did a quick automated accessibility check on it. And it's got
lots of errors. It's got... No alt text. It's got -- on links,
it doesn't have alt text. The heading structure isn't
accessible. According to W3C guidelines. It states that there
will be accessibility checks done, but the difference is that
ICANN started from scratch. Had that remediation process. And
said okay, we are building a new site. We're doing it with
accessibility from the start. When ISOC showcases its beta
site and it doesn't include accessibility, right then and
there, we are doing the same arguments as we've done before.
So it's of concern. Now, Glenn, you're on the board. When it
comes to the new website, has there been any discussion on
board level about that?

GLENN: Hello?

JUDITH: I think we just lost Gunela.

GUNELA: I'm here.

GLENN: Can you hear me?

JOLY: You're good, Glenn. Go ahead.

GLENN: Okay. Yeah, I brought it up. We had our first
introduction by Dan York on the new system, and we also had
the staff person responsible for the AMS, which is a whole
other issue in itself, in terms of database work, in terms of
chapter development. At Toronto -- sorry. The ISOC Canada, we
created a CVCRM, which ended up being seriously hacked. So I'm
looking forward to seeing the new site, providing value-
added... Perhaps an open CVCRM system. Some value-added...
That could be provided. It's a nice-looking site. It obviously
needs much more multilingual aspects. I connected Dan to
Harold Arcos, who's also a journalist and Spanish speaker out
of Caracas, Venezuela, but obviously, within minutes, folks, I
brought up the issue of... Let's get a culture of
accessibility. I know you brought up Lia earlier. When I did
calls with Lia and other staff persons, they were completely
not interested. And it sort of reminded me of that survey that
ICANN did to the staff on Culture of Accessibility. There just
isn't interest. And Gunela was with me many, many times, when
I was beating the drum on this issue. Perhaps as a board
member I can get more traction now, because now they have to
listen to me, because they bloody well didn't listen to me
when I was not a board member. So...

JUDITH: Right. Glenn, that is correct. They never listened to
you. But also... It's not necessarily -- we did get traction
on ICANN from the survey. And we could have proceeded more,
because we got the attention of the HR, who was very
interested. But it was only the HR who were interested. But we
could have pushed this more. The problem is that the
accessibility committee is a defunct committee. As Gunela and
I know, we've tried to get it revived with new leadership, but
it doesn't seem to be able... We haven't succeeded in that.
And that is why we are working on accessibility issues through
other lenses. We are working through the technology task
force. And then we are working through workstream to
diversity. Because those are the -- Workstream 2 -- in fact,
it was mostly because of Workstream 2 that captioning is being
pushed forward. Because Workstream 2, which is done by MSSI,
when we gave them a sample of captioning, everyone there
jumped at it, and pressured the MSSI people to get a budget
and to have this on all their calls. And MSSI went out and got
a budget. But of course, did not tell anyone else in ICANN.
Because most of ICANN doesn't talk to each other. But it's
also moving. We are moving -- Language Services even went out
and did an RFP for captioning. So it's moving really quickly
now. We're getting a lot of traction. And we're getting -- and
captioning has moved into the core of ICANN services. And
we're gonna be piloting it with the core. And so we won't have
to ask for funding each year. That once it's in the core, it's
going to be accepted as funded. Just have to get the pilot
rolled out. And the only thing is that our vendor, current
vendor, Caption First, did not bid on it, mostly because they
didn't understand the RFP, and also thought that they had to
work on every single language, which they don't have capacity.
So... But they got a bunch of bidders who responded to them.
And we're looking forward to seeing that. And then also we're
working on standardization and proprietariness and what does
it mean for... What are the standards for captioning, as
opposed to what are the standards for -- that ICANN is paying
for transcripts, for recording from audio. Looking at all
that, and finding a determination, getting some standards set,
so that when -- so that captioning then can be brought out to
everyone, and transcripts should be -- could be stopped.
Especially if transcripts are not verbatim. So if the
transcripts that ICANN is getting are not verbatim, what,
then, is the point of those transcripts, when we can get
captioning and do the same thing? So our team is looking at
all that right now. ICANN is doing a strategy re-think.
Internally. Trying to connect all these groups who are doing
captioning together, so they can actually speak in one voice.
Which is excellent. Because no one else has done that. So
there's a lot of movement and a lot of happening and a lot of
exciting times within ICANN.

JOLY: Glenn had more to say, but I'll just interject, because
you asked a question in chat. That you were late coming to the
call, Glenn, and I did a lengthy introduction, where I talked
about how -- and this is how I feel a bit more about this
generally -- is that we're talking about imposing sort of top-
down solutions, whereas, you know, it's not surprising that
because they don't feel the pain -- because there is no
bottom-up sort of pressure. If we had a bunch of active people
within, say, the Disabled and Special Needs Chapter, who are
saying -- yeah, we want this! So that's why I'm trying to do
these calls, to sort of assemble some kind of... Group of
people with pitchforks to come marching onto the... Towards
ISOC Central. To make things happen. Because otherwise, why
would -- they're trying to keep the Internet from going down
the tubes. It's... Okay. We'll get to that tomorrow. You know
what I mean? That's... Priorities in this kind of thing. So,
Glenn, what would you want to say?

GLENN: Okay. I was getting to a point. And the point I was
saying... And I can share with you... Because Joly has been
the only other one in the last couple of years that have
joined the ISOC moment of community engagement, where they ask
people to call in. And it's a short period of time, where we
have a chance to ask the board questions. And this time only
David Burstein actually called in. Because I was in the room.
And Joly, I wasn't sure where you were. It was time zone
issues. But it ended up getting hijacked just on the financial
issue. But we've been bringing this home for years. That
accessibility is an important issue. And I think... I feel it.
I can taste it. That we have a chance. And I think... I had
very little chance to really get the sense of the room, of
what other people think. But I think if you pounded home that
the Internet is for everyone, and we can't solve all the
world's problems, but if we can be fair and equitable to this
group, whether it's seniors with disabilities, or, you know,
looking at technologies, and making sure we're doing Internet
of Things workshops which are benefiting the people with
special needs, I think we can really get some good PR. Never
mind the fact that we do good work. But... I think it's
absolutely critical that every time we have a board meeting,
this group is on the call. And pushing this issue home.
Because I can only do so much on the board. And as a new
person.

JUDITH: Glenn, then the call should not be on Saturday.
Because when they make them on Saturday, I can never be on the
call. And they're always on a Saturday.

GLENN: Okay. But we're not talking only you.

JUDITH: But I'm just telling you.

MIRABAI: May I say something?

JOLY: That's what I've been saying about these board meetings.
The only time the staff presents something is to the board.
The only time the board listens to the minimumship is like
half an hour, during the thing. We should be doing more of
this kind of thing. We should have a whole session for the
board, and everybody... A couple of hours... And we should do
it frequently. We should do more of it. It's one thing that
occurred to me... Is that they did a pretty good campaign with
the Shine the Light campaign on women, and we could get
them... I think we could get wheels in motion to do the same
kind of thing on accessibility. They already have been doing
quite a lot with those people -- where are they? Armenia? Who
had the Beyond the Net grant and got all the awards. They've
been pushing that out in the publicity and so on. So we've
seen signs of that coming along.

GLENN: Yeah. I can't disagree with you. And I do sympathize,
Judith. On the fact that they have that time slot on the
Saturday. And we have to make them aware that... We have to be
equitable and provide time slots not just on a Saturday and a
Sunday or whatever it takes. But all I can say to you guys
is... Having one person on that call looks really bad to a
community that allegedly has over 100,000 members. But I think
Joly is onto something here. The bit of a bias with the
current thing is... That Shine the Light was very focused on
women or young girls, and I think that's her soft spot,
obviously, with Cathy. But I think if we can come up with a
catchy term -- take a look at the Pew Study. And I'm sure
Judith and Joly remember this. Last year, at the IGF USA, the
group that had the biggest problems with accessing broadband,
the lowest percentage -- I believe it was 43% -- were the
disabled, in the US. And next to that was disabled Hispanic.
But we're talking a serious disconnection between access, even
in the US. So I think we need to come up with a term and
just... Come up with a position paper. Maybe all of us. And
just hit it with them. And I think... As I say, I just want
to... I'm not discouraged. I think we have an opportunity. I'm
not interested -- obviously I'm interested in community
networks. Because that's what we're doing at our community
garden. And the stuff I do with IEEE. But this group here -- I
will beat the drum for the next few years. Hopefully I can get
them one by one. I think Alice and Desiree are approachable on
this issue. But I have to work and get to know each and every
board member to be on board with me. And I keep championing
this. But if we can get a position paper, a catchy phrase,
like Joly says, I think it can go a long way.

JUDITH: I agree. Desiree is very interested.

JOLY: I'm sorry. Judith, can I cut you off a second? One thing
I would say -- this is Gunela's week. We have more of her time
-- and Glennen, we can spend a whole call talking with you
about your experiences. Because you've done so much work in
this. And Gunela I know has got to leave in about five
minutes. So I would like to pass it back to her and ask her
for further thoughts. And about this project. And how we, in
terms of, like, members of the Disabled and Special Needs
Chapter, having weekly calls can help her with her project.

GUNELA: Thanks very much, Joly. And I really, really would
welcome your help and support, because I need to get the
backing of the community, as much as possible. And what I'm
going to do is interview Shadi Abu Asara from W3C. I'm going
to interview Vashkar Batterjee from Bangladesh. He's blind and
running a very exciting campaign in Bangladesh with the
government. Using DAISY as a platform for accessing student
textbooks. And DAISY is a worldwide standard. What I'm trying
to do is link particular individuals with key policies. It's
great having various funding projects, like the Armenian
project. But they... I need to have something that connects
the programs and policies to show how things can be actioned
in the future, as a model. So I'm looking at... I'm interested
in something from Africa. So there is a project, a Beyond the
Net project, in Uganda, I believe, and that I might consider,
but, Fred, if you have any suggestions, I would be very
interested. They need, as I said, to be something that can
have broader impact, rather than just -- we're setting up a
computer lab for people with disability. So while that's
really important, I'd like to see another step to it. And
certainly, Joly, I agree -- if we can get ICANN to work on --
to push this forward -- I agree also that if we can have more
input on the board level, it would be good. I'll just give an
example about the Internet of Things that Glenn mentioned. I
have received a positive response from the IGF MAG to run a
workshop at the next IGF on the Internet of Things and
accessibility. And I have a broad range of speakers, from
(inaudible) to Martin (inaudible), the chair of the dynamic
coalition. Plus people with disability. So that's the sort of
thing that ISOC can be involved with. And what I said many,
many times -- and I'll continue saying -- is that
accessibility is a cross-cutting issue. It cuts across
everything. I mean, we talked about websites, and that's,
like, the absolute fundamental. We've talked about captioning.
It's fundamental. But when it comes to different policies, be
it net neutrality, virtual reality, Internet of Things, you
know, all of these future and emerging and current
technologies -- they all are important for people with
disability to be able to keep it going. And be part of the
online community. So all of those things, I think, we need to
have as a whole. So I'll just finish there. But I would be
very keen to continue having these conversations with you. And
if there's a possibility to maybe alternate time zones from
time to time, that would be greatly appreciated.

JOLY: I've said weekly calls. So at least one a week is how I
feel about it. So I'm very flexible as to, like, what can go
on with the calls. I'll also say that that ISOC Connect
channel is where we should be keeping up a conversation there,
more so of things just to, like, keep up a steady drum beat of
stuff. That's the -- there is no mailing list. That's the
channel we have right now. To go on the record with what we
see and what we're doing. And I'll repeat a point I made
earlier, just for Glenn. Which is: I see around me these
accessibility groups in Chicago, DC, New York, Toronto,
they're full of young people, they're full of very technical
people that know what they're doing, and I don't see them
engaged at all with the kind of dynamic coalitions or any of
this kind of thing. And there's a bridge. That's the bridge
that I'd like to make. And I believe that ISOC is the right
place to make that bridge.

GUNELA: Yeah, I agree, Joly. I'm linked in with disability
advocates across the world. But as I think Judith said before,
and Glenn, it's this thing about... Okay. We've tried. We've
tried. We've tried. And we need to focus our energies on where
we can make traction. And also some of those people, Joly, you
mentioned, were technical people. And sometimes technical
people find policy discussions pretty frustrating. And as we
just said before, Joly, that it's building that bridge. And if
we can... With ISOC support, get that bridge happening and
getting it strong, we might move forward. And if Joly... If
you were able to, with your... All your technical
connections... Encourage some of those Meetup people in the US
and Canada to come to these meetings, and just to build the
momentum, it would be fantastic.

JOLY: That bit about tried and tried and tried -- I'm looking
for people who haven't really tried, so they're ready to,
like, have a go. You know what I mean? To bring a bit of
energy to it, from the bottom. I really feel like that's
important. So I do see that the time is on us. It's 29 minutes
past the hour. So I know that you have another call, Gunela.
If you want to... Let go. We can do that. For the rest of
us... We can... I'm in no rush to go. So if we want to talk a
little bit further, we can.

MIRABAI: I have to go too, I'm afraid.

JOLY: Fred hasn't had a chance to get a word in edgeways.

GUNELA: Actually, Fred, before I go, is it possible just for
you to make some comments about what you've heard and this
conversation? I'm interested in your thoughts.

FRED: Okay. Yeah. I think hearing from the comments that Joly
and Judith made, I believe that the executives or the board
members really need to get some attention to the people who
are pushing -- disability groups -- and then projects about
helping make most websites and certain things accessible, to
those who are being laid off, in a way. But I find it
interesting that ISOC -- it's not pushing to help the people
with special needs. Meanwhile, ICANN immediately Judith
introduced it to her group, as she mentioned, they embraced it
so well, and then I think during the ICANN meeting, at Africa,
she was able to attend and help in doing the captioning for
them. And I think that was great. But if ISOC can also take
this up to be able to help make some kind of a project, to be
able to help the other people who are in special needs, I
think it would be nice. But Sri Lanka -- there was a
presentation by Ms. Manik Gunati, and I think that one was
very awesome.

JOLY: It was very good.

FRED: Yeah, in terms of accessibility. So maybe something... I
don't have a say, actually, much, when it comes to ISOC. But
I've been a member, and then I try to give some input that I
can hear. So some of you, I think, Glenn, happen to know much
and then be closer to the board a little. So... Glenn, Joly,
Gunela, Judith, I think you can push it more to the board, and
then whatever happens, some of us can also give in our support
to help.

GUNELA: Thank you very much, and I need to go very, very soon.
But I just wanted to respond. And I totally agree, Fred, with
what you're saying. And I was happy to note your mention of
Manik. I just want to give a bit of history here. I wrote an
article for the Asia Pacific regional newsletter, which
hopefully will be included in the newsletter at the end of
July. And I talked about the project. But I also gave a bit of
a history from the point of view of the Asia Pacific region.
And I had received two... What they used to call community
grants... For the Australian chapter. And one of them was in
relation to advocacy for accessibility policy development in
the Pacific island countries. And I ran a number of workshops
there. But the one I wanted to mention here is development of
disability training for chapter leaders, and I developed that.
I put together a workshop at the Sri Lanka chapter leaders --
for the Asia Pacific region. And I had previously spoken to
Navid. We worked at the Pakistan Telecommunications Authority.
And he presented about providers and a survey he had done
about any services they offered for people with disability. So
he got involved at that stage, and he became very interested
in accessibility.

JOLY: I'll say, Gunela, to interrupt you, we've had Navid,
we've had Ms. -- and Fred has seen them speak and we know all
about them.

FRED: Yeah, Navid's presentation too was very awesome.

JOLY: We're looking for more people like that to come on and
give us -- when you say I should do some stuff -- those things
I should probably leverage more. And then just back to your
thing about -- when you said you're gonna interview these
people -- is that something I can get video of? Or we can do
in this kind of format?

GUNELA: It's a very good point, Joly. Because I asked staff
about that. And their approach now is that they ask the person
in whatever country it is to do the video themselves, and they
have put together some guidelines. Which are in PowerPoint
slides and which are not accessible. But that's another story.
And then I would organize someone in Australia to do the
captioning. But I would need to also work with Niki in ISOC
just to ascertain how much editing assistance she would
provide. If you're able to...

JOLY: What they're thinking is... There was the very famous
one they did in Harlem here, where they actually sent a
professional photographer, and made a video of our project to
teach seniors the Internet in Harlem. And they milked that for
years. But I think those little cameo videos is what they have
in mind. You need a decent professional. I can't put that
stuff together. I don't even -- and Glenn -- we don't have the
facilities to do that kind of thing. You need someone who is
basically an artist, a professional, to, like, pull that kind
of thing off. Whereas this kind of... Fireside chat kind of
thing, with maybe two people in this kind of format, actually
can be quite effective. So it is a way of thinking about it. I
will say that just about ISOC generally -- is that I'm under
contract with ISOC to, like, run stuff. Just so that staff
basically -- so that staff don't have to. You know what I
mean? That's my function. They say that's how they justify me
doing -- paying me for what I do with live streaming. Is that
nobody else has to worry about it. And I basically go and look
for opportunities to live stream. That's my... That's my role
within ISOC.

GUNELA: And you're all over. You're all over the place, Joly.
You're doing so much live streaming. I see it coming up all
over. And I do find this approach... I'm trying to be
diplomatic, here. It's difficult. Because I've seen some of
the videos done, where it's been done remotely. And they can
be quite stiff. And it becomes a bit uninteresting. And so if
it's at that level, the work will be done, but if it's going
to really attract attention, it's another matter. And I agree.
I would love to have a professional photographer and a team --
because I've produced a small video --

JOLY: When I was hired a couple years ago, you know, this was
what Todd said. Is: We don't want staff doing this kind of
stuff. We want to hire outside vendors to do a good job. He's
talking about live streaming. But that was basically the
theory. But what we want to do is to tell the story
effectively. That's basically what we want to do. At that
point, there is another level, which I do, which is just to
give accessibility to events to people who can't attend. And
we just... Basically do it on a shoe string, we just do the
best that we can, and that's what I do. You know what I mean?

GUNELA: Yes.

JOLY: So that's what I do. Glenn is itching to speak. Glenn?

GLENN: I'm not sure whether this is relevant at this point,
but I want to share with you guys... I met with Larry
Strickland and Grace... I can't remember her name. Maybe
Judith met with them as well. Apparently he got hired by Cathy
to look at this multistakeholder model, and it was kind of
interesting, because that was one of the questions in that
survey. That Sally was talking about. With the future of the
Internet. But it looks like there's talk about educating
people on becoming multistakeholders. How to engage the
community. And it might be something... I can't speak for
Cathy. Because it's a contract she gave to Larry, to do this
analysis. But I got the sense that..., you know, who is the
multistakeholder model applying to? It applies to everybody.
And it particularly -- our interest is this group. And I think
if anyone here wants to reach out to Larry Strickland and
emphasize this -- I did stress this strongly to him. That it's
just not a uniform mob of people that are involved with giving
policy comments to ICANN or ISOC. But there's quite a
diversity. Based on income and access and whatever. But I
think it's an interesting thing to think about, guys. If you
guys want Larry Strickland... Larry was the guy, as you guys
all know... He was with the government. And he was responsible
for the transition...

JOLY: I have actually asked... You know, grilled Strickland in
events about the ins and outs and multistakeholder and how
some people are much more advantaged than others and all this
kind of thing. What I'll say at this point is that Mirabai is
hired for an hour, and we're now onto an hour and 15 minutes.
So this is a good conversation. We're gonna have another call
next week. We can make it 6:30 again, so we can have Gunela
on. We don't have to, like, solve all the world's problems
today. So I think we should really call it a day today. And
say... We'll talk more.

GUNELA: Yeah, look, Joly, that would be fantastic, and I
really appreciate people changing the timeslot.

JOLY: And Gunela, can you notice what a good stenographer
Mirabai is. Do you think she's good? Are you seeing this?

GUNELA: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. It's fantastic captioning. Thank
you, Mirabai.

MIRABAI: You're very kind.

GUNELA: It's clear, and sometimes I speak fast, and you're
keeping up.

MIRABAI: (blushing)

JOLY: The only stuff she missed is that Kathy is spelled with
a K, and she's never heard of Vince Surf. That was obvious.

MIRABAI: No idea how to spell that, sorry. I'm out of the
loop.

GUNELA: Oh, that's a good one. Okay. What I would really get
benefit from is, at the next meeting, would be to discuss your
thoughts on doing effective videos. Because I'm at the stage
of... You know, I've already... I already got two people lined
up who I think would be great to interview. And I'm selecting
one or two more. I know that Shadi said he could organize
someone from his end who is... Experienced.

JOLY: What both Glenn and I will tell you -- what counts on
video is audio. As long as you've got good audio, you can
point the camera at the ceiling, is what I always say. So that
is the most important thing.

GUNELA:. Okay. And these people are going to have basic audio
from their smartphone.

JOLY: No. It's not... It's not... You know, I mean, basically
the mic has to be this close. And if there's noise in the
room, it's like... This mic I'm using here is a Cardioid mic,
so it doesn't pick up my very loud air conditioner over there.
Anyway, I want to call it a day.

GUNELA: I really do need to go.

JOLY: All right.

GUNELA: Yeah. So we'll catch up and we'll talk about those
practical things next week. That would be fantastic.

JOLY: All right.

JUDITH: And Joly, I need to speak to you afterwards.

JOLY: Okay.

MIRABAI: Bye, all!

JOLY: And the good news which I said that Judith is gonna give
is that she's got captioning for the IGF USA.