MIRABAI: Waiting for meeting to start.

>> Hi, I'm just setting up at this end. This is the first time I've ever tried to do captioning within Zoom, and I've found that you need to have something called Zoom rooms, which I don't have on my account. I'm just attempting to set it up here.

>> Okay. But, you know, we have a separate text link that we can give out.

>> Yeah. Maybe that could be possible. I mean... Knowing that...

>> That was part of the... I was looking for a good one to... I'm having to struggle through two-factor authentication.

>> Joly, just a question. How long do you expect me to be in the call?

>> No longer than an hour. And if it's over before that, so be it.

>> One hour. So... I might have a challenge of staying for one hour.

>> Okay. What we have also is that video that's posted. So we can finish up with that. That's a good ten minutes. So I hadn't really been getting a lot of people showing up at this. So it's fine if we... You know. So Zoom rooms... I'm not set up for. So it's just gonna be the link. And so as long as I've got that link, and what I'm gonna do is go and set up to record that as it's timed, on another machine. So I'm just gonna go off and do that. Set that up so that I can record it as Mirabai types. So this is Fred, who's joined us from Ghana. One of our most regular members.

>> Hi, Fred. How are you?

>> Hello. I'm good. How are you too?

>> I'm good. I'm good, thank you. What time is it where you are?

>> It's 5 p.m., 17 o'clock, UTC.

>> Okay, okay. 

>> And I'm happy meeting you today.

>> Likewise. Good to see you on Zoom. This is an amazing platform. You are able to use it, and there has been a lot of encouragement from the community as well. It's a handy software.

>> I started using it four weeks ago, when they started the disability/accessibility meetings. I think we have... Carl? Hello, Carl.

>> Hi, Naveed.

>> Hey, Carl. 

>> Carl, how are you doing?

>> Good. So quick question for you. I work for ISOC, and I'm responsible these days for the special interest groups. With this hangout, are we in contact with the heads of the disability chapter as well? Or is this something outside?

>> Okay. I think Joly would be able to give us a good answer on that. But I think Joly is out of his seat at the moment.

>> Okay.

>> But I know of Judith. Sometimes Judith comes in and then -- Judith has got more information on the special needs chapter as well. So I don't know if Judith will be joining us today.

>> Okay.

>> So which country is Carl joining from?

>> I'm in the US.

>> Oh, okay. Nice meeting you here.

>> Very nice to meet you, Fred.

>> Naveed has muted his audio?

>> I have unmuted it now.

>> Yes. We will have gotten an answer for Carl as well.

>> So yeah. I think what I have understood is that this is a meeting that the New York chapter does, Carl, and Joly contacted me last week or the week before, during IGF Sri Lanka. We were just having a chat. And said why don't you join us for this call, and we'd like to hear what you've been doing in Asia/Pacific, regarding digital accessibility. So I said yes. But yeah, I think on that angle, we do have a chapter for persons with disabilities. So we call it, I think, ISOC chapter for persons with disabilities. But I'm not really much sure about -- Joly, Carl is here, and he has a question. Carl, can you just quickly ask it?

>> Yeah, so Joly, I just sent you an email as well a little while ago. But with regards to these hangouts, which are awesome, is this in line with the SIG as well? Or is this something that you guys are doing externally?

>> I'm just reaching for my microphone. Hang on.

>> Yep.

>> My headphone cable. If you were paying attention, Kyle, you would have read the write-up on the first one. And in fact, watched the recorded video of the first one, which I explain that it seems like the leadership is a little out to lunch. So basically it's up to us members of the chapter to, like, do something bottom-up.

>> Sure.

>> You know, to... And so if... And so we'd like to, like, maybe have a change of leadership, but in order to have a change of leadership, we need to have a number of people. And the only way we're going to get together a number of people is by having meetings. You know? And so by meeting hopefully over time, we'll build up some kind of core of people, and so we can move forward. You know, maybe we can avoid the rejuvenation process, if we can get the wheel rolling. And we've seen from at least Michael Burke... We've had messages of support. I think and even -- I'm not sure -- maybe from Mark Urban as well. You know, it's something that we've sort of discussed over time. Was... You know, was this -- with Mark Buell, when he came in as North America manager, you know, about maybe sort of... Doing a bit of a takeover. But the people who are basically interested is Glen McKnight, Judith, and me. I am already chair of another chapter. Judith is busy. And Glen is now on the board. So all of us are excluded from leadership. You know, I've been live streaming the a11ynyc -- accessibility NYC Meetups for -- I've now been with them for about a year and a half. And so I've come to understand there is quite a large community, a grassroots community, in America, working on these issues. And I'm hoping -- and one of the key people in there is actually Jennison Assuncion, who is one of our members. Do you know him?

>> Yes.

>> So he was someone who I would very much like to see chair the chapter. I hope to have him on one of these meetings soon, to talk with us. So basically the idea is we just -- I said okay. I'll give up an hour of my time every week to, like, just to host a thing. And the first week, we really talked to Fred. It was Fred and Judith. The second week, it was me and Judith. The third week, it was me and Fred, I think, and here we are on the fourth week, where I managed -- well, we were doing IGF Sri Lanka. I was able to invite Naveed. And I will say that her name is awkward and escapes me, but the IGF in Sri Lanka, there's a lady down there, a blind lady, who made a very impressive speech about accessibility. But I keep seeing Naveed -- seems to be one of the people within the global internet society who is really taking a lead on these issues. So I'm very happy to have him today. And he apparently has limited time. So we should let him talk.

>> Yeah, sorry, folks. There's an emergency in the family, and I have to take care of that ASAP. So my daughter is... Anyhow... So I'll be very quick here. I'll just try to speak on what Joly just said. We know that there are around 1 billion people, persons with disabilities, across the world. And only in Asia/Pacific, the stats say that there are around 600 million, or somewhere around that. Which is a huge number. Now, in developing countries, usually they get a lot of opportunities and chances to -- not only to spend a normal daily life, but also to access the technology, including the internet. However, in the developing -- sorry, developed countries. That's what I said. In developing countries, I think I'm precisely talking from the South Asian perspective. That's the area where I come from. I live in Pakistan. And we pretty much have the same culture, across South Asia. And one of the things that -- well before joining the Internet Society, or even coming on the internet, I've seen that usually we will not accept those people. The society is not very supportive to accept those persons with disabilities. As in the mainstream. And in addition to that, they have a lot of challenges and barriers to access public services and technology for that as well. Now, it all started when we were doing this Pakistan school of governance back in 2015, and when I walked in, the first day, into the school, there was a person with a visual impairment. And that person was actually using his laptop, and I just -- you know, I was shaking hands with all of the participants, and I just came near him. Then I realized that he can't see. Because to be honest, from a distance, I just couldn't, you know, translate that. Because he was very normally using something on the laptop, and I just... You know. So that really -- you know, that was, I think, a moment of inspiration for me. Because that was maybe the second time in my life, and I saw a person who can't see, using a laptop. Or a computer machine. And this person that I'm talking about -- he was going through some of the emails. With an introduction, I got to know that this person is actually doing PSD from a very good institute in Pakistan. On international relationships. And then I started having a discussion on him --

>> I'm sorry, PSD, did you say?

>> NDU. The University.

>> No, before that. You said what he's doing is PSD?

>> PhD.

>> Oh, PhD, thank you.

>> PhD in international relationship. So I started talking to him. Because it made me curious as well how easily he's using his emails and all that. And that's where the discussion moved on, and then I got to know about screen reader softwares, and he was telling me a story that the software that he is using is called JAWS, J-A-W-S. It's a software made out of a company in the United Kingdom. And it's a licensed software. The price was somewhere around... I don't remember the number. But it was a very high price. Especially for a person in Pakistan. It's around $800 or $700, whatever that was. And I said -- okay. So you're using a licensed software? He said no. I can't afford it. And we don't have a local software available in Pakistan, which can, you know, be a screen reader for us. So we have to rely on this software. Most of us. But I was able to get the crack, using torrents. And I started laughing when I listened to that, because it was so natural. And I was like -- you were able to use a torrent, you were able to download a crack? And he said yes, I was able to do that. So the next four days was a lot of discussion with this person. And then we thought that we had some discussion and we thought we'd probably need to do some workshops, some dialogues, something in Pakistan, and see -- you know, this digital accessibility, where Pakistan stands, et cetera, et cetera. And we did a workshop in partnership with the local civil society organization, called Bytes For All. And in that workshop, what we did -- we had all of our panelists as persons with disabilities. So of course, there were some high-profile people, but we made sure that our panel -- all of the four people would be persons with cross disabilities. A person with hearing impairment, a person with vision impairment, a person with physical impairment, and we gave them the stage to speak out. And tell us about their issues and challenges, and the barriers when they try to use the internet. We also did an assessment of the local websites in Pakistan. So we went to Alexa, this famous software on the website, which gives you the top hundred websites in the country. So we picked that list from Alexa. And then we gave that list to some of the people, which by that time was part of a group. Most of them were persons with disabilities. So one of them is a software engineer, by the way, which again was very encouraging for me, coming from a computer science background. And he was able to do assessment for us. So what this person did -- he went to all of those Top 50 websites that we picked out of the Top 100, from Alexa. And based on the W3C standards on accessibility, he tried to assess all those websites. Those websites were a mix of media websites, government websites, industry websites, et cetera, et cetera. And when we got the results of the assessment, we found that around 85% of those websites were not compliant. They didn't have any accessibility coding practices. And they were not accessible to the person with disabilities at all. And one of the persons from that workshop made a very interesting comment, saying that he wants to pay tax, because he earns. However, the FBR, which is the revenue department in Pakistan, and they have a very hi-fi portal, where you can go and you can file your taxes, so you don't have to visit an office. It's all online. However, that portal is not accessible. And so that person with visual impairment made a very interesting comment, that I want to pay a tax to the government, but unfortunately this website, using which I can file my taxes, is not accessible. It's a very simple and very... You know, it's just... This thing, you feel like... But it's a very important and strong point. And that led us to, you know, further dig down into the problems. We went to the regulator. We went to the ministry. And we tried to, you know, bring them in part of this discussion. And say -- hey, listen to these people. We have around 30 million population in population, persons with disabilities. These people are having issues. They're not even able to access some of the very important government websites. And that actually, you know, led to an initiative that we took together with the regulator. We call it Pakistan Mobile App Award. So one of the two main requirements that got out of this workshop was one that -- there's a real need to address this issue. There's a real need to encourage accessibility in Pakistan. And there's also a real need to see what are the other missing gaps. So we started this Pakistan Mobile App Award, and the theme was that we would only accept mobile applications for persons with disabilities. And as part of this award, we went to different cities in Pakistan. And we had the developers -- both website and mobile developers -- interacting face-to-face with persons with disabilities. In a group forum. And talking about what are the issues, what are the challenges, what could be done, et cetera, et cetera. And again, maybe not to be surprised, talking from the previous experience on that workshop, the developers were not at all aware about any accessibility. I mean, one of them literally said that I didn't even know that this existed. There are guidelines. There are standards. There are practices available, using which I can make my website accessible. Because whenever I was coding, I never thought about persons with disabilities. And that again was a very strong point, and that, you know, just made it very clear to us that there is a huge gap. There's a huge demand, and there was a huge need of awareness as well. And maybe we have to promote this accessibility by design principle. So we can talk with developers and try to encourage them that -- hey, guys. Listen. There are practices. There are standards. There are guidelines. We just have to follow them. And they're not very difficult. However, once you do that, you are able to cater the needs of requirements of persons with disabilities. And thank them as one of your customers. So as a developer, when you develop an application, you will have a commercial mindset, and you will always look for your end user or your audience. Just imagine a country with 30 million people with disabilities. If you develop products and services which are accessible, you are bringing that 30 million population in that circle of your product. Which could be your customers. So we give them this business angle as well, to make them more understand that it's not only that you do it for a social cause, but there is a commercial background as well. There is an audience of a huge population, which is not being catered for. While you design your applications and your websites. Et cetera. So anyhow, we had this long one-hour -- one year of this program, and last year, we had these applications coming out of them. One application I heard has been shortlisted for the ITU award. And then this year, we have also put in our plans to take this discussion further into the Asia/Pacific, from learning from the Pakistan experience. And we did a workshop in Sri Lanka, on 31st March, which was a similar workshop, bringing developers and persons with disabilities together, to interact with each other and discuss -- and also a panel with stakeholders, including the government, trying to emphasize that there is a need from the policy angle and there's a need from the development angle. And also from the technology angle. Especially in such countries to, you know, facilitate persons with disabilities. We had made a several number of documents, and Joly, I'll share that later. Maybe tomorrow morning I'll email and you can share that. Because there are huge resources that came out of all this work that we have done. And then we are also now moving to Indonesia, to do a workshop in August, and see where Indonesia is. And then we'll have these subregional contacts coming from the Asia/Pacific. And then of course we'll try to bring as much success as we can inside Asia/Pacific, especially. One of the key success that we had in Pakistan, due to all the discussion and bringing the ministry into the loop, was that ministry of IT has drafted policy guidelines, and in those policy guidelines, with the help of this group that we have here in Pakistan, they have put a special section for persons with disabilities. So once that policy comes out, which we are expecting by next month, it's gonna be a five years policy coming from the government, which has a special section for persons with disabilities. Now, this might look a bit... You know, normal to Joly, maybe, or our friends from the US. But coming from a developing country like Pakistan, it never happened that this IT policies or these government policies ever cater the needs and the policy actions required for persons with disabilities. So we think that was a big success, coming out of Pakistan. And let's see if we can make some impact in Indonesia and Sri Lanka, and moving forward in other parts of Asia/Pacific as well. So that's all from my side, folks. I'll take some questions if there are, and then I'll excuse. I really have to go.

>> Yes, my mic is on. So... Congratulations, first, Naveed, on your work. It's just incredible work. And inspiring, I think, for many other people in other regions, to see what you're doing. Just reading your piece here, on the ISOC website, I see that you said you received funding to keep doing more workshops. And I'm seeing -- how well are you able to leverage those workshops? And are you live streaming those workshops? Or recording them, or anything? Or recording presentations, so that people can learn?

>> So... Well, the funding, Joly... So that again is funding that we got in Pakistan, from our research agency. And we used that funding to do those workshops in different cities that I was referring earlier. For the work in Pakistan, we were able to make some documents, and there are some videos as well. For the Sri Lanka and the Jakarta one, one of the things that we are keeping in this workshop is that we are trying to encourage the participants to speak in local language. So that's another issue. The language barrier is another issue. A person with a disability in a developing country, if you expect him or her to speak in English, that's probably too much. So we are encouraging them to speak in their own language. And that's what we did in Pakistan. Because most of them either don't know English or are too much shy to speak in English, because they probably would not find the right words to say and express what they want to. So on the live streaming, I think we can probably hit the Jakarta one. Sri Lanka, we were not able to do. But we did produce some outcome documents from Indonesia as well. And that's something I will share.

>> I think the live streaming is probably too ambitious, but if one makes recordings, those are things one can look at on demand. One would think that local language stuff would be very valuable to people who speak the local language, regardless. I would imagine that captioning in local languages, finding stenographers in those languages, must be a problem.

>> Agreed. No, we have the audio recording for the Sri Lanka one. And we definitely have at least an audio recording for the Jakarta one as well. Let's discuss it further. And maybe we will be able to do the live streaming in Jakarta as well.

>> Okay. You know I'm always ready to help.

>> Very helpful.

>> Does anybody else have questions? I don't see anybody speaking up. Judith has usually got something to say. But she says she's out. Judith is saying... Judith's got two questions in the chat.

>> Yeah, I'm here. I'm here. Yeah. So... No, I think what you're doing is great. I heard the end of it. I'm gonna read the transcript. But I think if we can get some of the stuff that you're doing also and get some of the people to join the IGF dynamic coalition on accessibility, then we can also make an impact on there. And also maybe make an impact -- on some of these -- get them nominated for some of the prizes or, like, the world telecom development forum. They're looking always for projects. Right before the WTDC. And each country has development projects. And maybe we can get some of these in there. And get more --

>> Yeah. Thanks, Judith. That's a great idea. And thanks for referring to some of the resources. We have been trying to connect these people to some of the international and regional communities as well, and some of those projects and awards that you mentioned could be really helpful. I'll keep that in mind. Thank you.

>> Okay. Well, on the ISOC connect, we can continue this conversation there, and exchange our resources. So I opened up a thread by posting the announcement of this. So we can go back to that. And I can see, Naveed, you itching to get away. So I'm not gonna hold you.

>> Yeah, I have to leave. I have to leave.

>> I'll just say thank you very much. And what I'm going to do is to show your video. Because while we have Mirabai here, transcribing, then we'll get... We will get a transcription of that video, which I notice is not... Does not have one right now. So let me just come up with share screen.

>> Okay, everyone. Thank you very much for having me, Joly. I really apologize, but I have to leave early. Goodbye. Have a good day or evening, everyone. Bye-bye.

>> Let's see. Here we go with the video. I hope everybody's got it.

(no audio)

>> Joly, there's no audio.

>> Can we get the audio of the video?

>> Joly's working on it.

>> All right.

>> Okay. I have to figure something out here. I know that there's a setting for this. Let me go on share screen. Share computer sound. That's what I did not click that on. Okay, so I will now try it again. And Mirabai, what you'll see is the stuff that's in the foreign language is transcribed on the bottom of the screen into English, but the stuff that's in English is not transcribed on the video.

(bouncy music)

>> RollOut came as a result of a realization of how people need facilitation in Pakistan in general. We all claim that we care about them, but we don't translate that care into actions. By ramps or facilitation. All kinds of facilitation. But in RollOut, we call the decision makers to make the policies that can make the facility, by installing a ramp, by giving special washroom, or a special facility that is in the organizations. We add everything that you need as a physical disabled people to our app, from restaurants to big institutes, or a governmental organization. And our slogan is that simple. We make it easier for you.

>> My project is basically accurate position marking. What it does -- basically, if there's special people that don't walk accurately, to make them correct, we have developed an application that is a software application, that will tell to the people, the disabled people or the people with having the limps or the artificial limbs they have appointed, that we monitor the angles of the leg, and we will tell them whether you are walking right or wrong. So we have some references. So that's why comparing with the references we can easily find it out, whether the person is moving a normal walk, a normal gait, or he has some issues. Secondly, what we are trying to do is we are trying to improve this application, not only pertaining to the blind people, you can say to the gait analysis -- we are extending to the blind. We are extending to the deaf. How? Basically, it is (inaudible). That can enhance the algorithm in a way that can tell the blind people what the obstacle is coming in front of him. So these are the future work, the future research that we are trying to put in our previous research. So our APM, accurate position marker, will not be a singlehandedly one application. It will cover all the defects that... And accidentally that, God forbid, a person can have.

>> 24 years old, male.  

>> Coffee, 240 rupees. Tea, 180 rupees.

>> Okay. So I think that's a pretty good video. And, you know, there's one thing that... Naveed's talk... You know, they make me think of. I also shoot Silicon Harlem, and the question of diversity often comes up in their discussions. And Playton Banks, who runs Silicon Harlem, one of the founders -- he makes the point about diversity. This is not an obligation. Companies that involve diversity are at an advantage. And I think this is a thing to know about societies. That societies that successfully leverage their disabled communities are at an advantage over other societies. Because there are a lot of talents in those communities, which... I mean, Mirabai will tell you that blind people can digest words at a rate far... Hear words at a rate far faster than any of the rest of us, because they listen to screen readers all the time. And are excellent transcribers. But there are all kinds of things like that. So I think this is a point that has to be made. And so now I'll throw it open as to whether anybody else has something to say. We have Fred on. And we also have Wilson, who is a new person to us. I don't know if your mic works, Wilson, if you want to introduce yourself.

>> Um... Thank you, Joly. I'm in the Kenyan chapter.

>> Welcome. You're cracking up a little bit. But Kenya chapter. Yes.

>> I've logged in since (inaudible). And I have been logged in since when Naveed was speaking. And the situation here in Kenya is... Was far worse than the one in Asia. As he was speaking. So I hope that I will get... You know... Inspiration from this.

>> Wilson, this is Judith. You should connect with Judy Okite. She's a disability champ in Kenya.

>> All right.

>> Yeah, she's also...

>> How can I get her -- the connection with her?

>> I will... I will send an email to Joly. And then he can make it -- pass it on.

>> What I will say, again, is that it's that we have -- the place we have to exchange information is the channel in ISOC Connect.

>> Yeah. But people hate Connect.

>> Wilson, I presume you are a member of our chapter in Kenya?

>> Yes. Yes. Yes. I am a member of the Internet Society of Kenya. To sensitize the mainstream of disability. Because I'm visually impaired also.

>> Okay.

>> I'm blind. I use screen readers. Yeah.

>> Are you on the ISOC Connect? Is it working for you?

>> Yes, yes, yes. It is. That's how I even got communication of this meeting.

>> Okay. So Judith, if you could post Judy's information there, that would be great.

>> Yeah, I'm trying to post it in the chat. Oh, you got it. Oh, great. Fred put it in the chat.

>> Yep. Okay. That's very good. So thanks, Wilson. So we'll get talking to Judy, and we'll see what's going on, and maybe we can get Judy to come on and talk to us, like we have Naveed.

>> Thank you.

>> Oh, and also -- Wilson, if you come on, we would love -- are you a member... Are you a member... What... You're only a member of ISOC Kenya? I'm not sure ISOC Kenya is an ICANN ALS.

>> Oh yeah, we should.

>> But if they are... It would be great. Because we could use you on rolling out our captioning project. In ICANN.

>> Are you going to the Africa Internet Summit?

>> I'm not. But... Wilson?

>> Yes, I (inaudible) there have not been all meetings daily, but from next week, I intend to attend all the meetings. Because that's when the Internet Society of Kenya is going to be hosting (inaudible). Just... Rejuvenated. So we are not so advanced as of now.

>> I'm a member of the Kenya chapter. So I keep up with it. But anyway... When you're there, you know, ask around and see if you can find Glen McKnight. Because he's one of our people from North America. He's gone over there to give a presentation. He's in town.

>> Right. But also, you know, we're trying to... Right now, on the...

>> (inaudible)

>> Right now on... Have you... Wilson, have you used Adobe Connect? Can you use Adobe Connect?

>> Let him talk.

>> I can't hear him.

>> Yeah. He's breaking up. I think we shouldn't ask him any more questions. Because we're breaking up. But if we can open a channel with Wilson, that would be good.

>> Yeah, yeah, yeah. It will be good.

>> Okay. Can I switch to Fred now? Fred in Ghana? So Fred... How has your week been, since we talked last week?

>> By God's grace, I've been okay. And work has been cool too, here. But... I think I really loved the presentation done by Naveed. But I watched a video of that... It was before noon today. So I think almost everything that Naveed was talking about -- I had watched a video, which I still have of it. So I think I appreciate that everything -- that he spoke about. And then I saw the different people who were contacted. And then who played the part or played the role in making sure that they were able to get that project.

>> I think it was interesting that, you know, the lever that he used was that people couldn't pay their taxes. That appealed to the government. The government sat up and started listening right then. Right?

>> He had a strong point in that aspect. Because I think the government, although it would be ready to sponsor certain events, they also want to see the benefits that they would get from it. And so I think using that particular point was a good option, because you cannot let them go -- while they are ready to pay their taxes as well. Unless maybe they decide to provide some kind of tax-free loans for persons with disabilities. Then the government will intervene.

>> That's true too. But, you know, there's many people with disabilities that are working -- what we call "working stiffs" here in America, who are productive members of society.

>> I even know one man who has the leg not... He has a fracture with the leg. So he limps, whilst walking. But he sells credit just across the street here. Let's say that has been his work that he does on a daily basis.

>> Very good. Okay. So Judith, finally we're down to our last few minutes. Do you want to report on your visit to Minneapolis? Last week? For the Digital Inclusion Conference?

>> First I would like to also comment on the -- on Fred's issue. And also I think in Pakistan, they have a good... The regulator there is a very forward-thinking regulator. And is very interested in pushing through different things through a universal service and getting it put forward. I've met the regulator several times at the IGF. I was working with Joe Cotruso, bringing them in. And they are really good. They are learning best practices. They are formulating them. They are really pushing the envelope. And so I think it's good that we have a friend there. And I think that's what we should use. We're five minutes... I think the conference was a fascinating conference. Mostly -- not people working on disability issues, per se, but more working on bringing broadband to the disadvantaged. And I think the key -- one of the key people there, who I was very inspired by, and I'm hoping to bring him out for our access panel -- is talking about diversity. And how he has managed to wrangle companies not only to hire people or to put in policies that would hire people, but those who can't hire people or ensure that at least some people each year go... Have to also complete a different diversity program, and give out equipment, give them equipment that they don't use. So if you can't get them to do actual slots or internships, he can get them to donate stuff. Which he then sells for, like, $50. Computers, laptops, and other stuff. And I thought that was pretty amazing. And then he also teaches classes. It's a university, but it's like -- this guy is, like, jack of all trades. He manages to get supplier diversity, vendor diversity, and get companies to adhere to these.

>> Are you gonna give us a name, Judith?

>> Yes. Well, if you had looked at the chart, you would see his name. It was Darren Peel. But he's on the Google. It's on the Google chart for the access panel. Since you're a member of that.

>> I'm not with you. The Google chart for the access panel?

>> Yeah. My IGF access panel that you're helping us with.

>> Oh, he is. Okay. And we're talking here about the internet governance forum USA, which will be in DC on July...

>> July...

>> 24th?

>> Right. And I met him at the digital inclusion. And I think he's amazing, for what he's trying to do. And I think he could be a model for what other places are trying to do in the US. If we had more people like him -- because I'm sure all states have similar diversity programs. But they just don't have someone pushing them. Or creative ideas.

>> There's certainly a lot of commonality between diversity programs and accessibility programs. You know, around... It's been pointed out -- and I thought Mirabai will probably know this -- Stanley did it. But when we had the guy from the New York City Parks Department, he made a big issue about the difference between universal design as against accessibility/disability design. That basically it's making stuff that anybody can use, rather than --

>> Right. Exactly.

>> And... So that's the goal.

>> Well, yeah. The goal, because... Universal design goes to standards, and anything that's a standard can be done with accessibility. The screen readers. The problem is things are not done to a standard. And because in the US we don't have a law yet on that. The justice department has been sitting on that for years.

>> Yeah. We don't have a lot of hope in the current administration. But maybe we can do something from the bottom up. Okay. So... Thank you, Judith. And I guess that's it. I'd like to thank Mirabai again for coming through on the stenography. And we'll be here again, same bat time, same bat channel, next week. You've got something else, Judith?

>> I won't be here next week. Because it's a holiday.

>> Okay. Well, enjoy.

>> So... Yeah.

>> I think I sent something to Judith. The pilot team.

>> Yeah. You asked about the ICANN... If you're interested, we have a pilot in at large, and now we got the money into the core budget, and we are setting up a new team to help plan more stuff on that. But if you're interested, let me know. But you should familiarize yourself with the original pilot. And if you Google ICANN captioning pilot, you should be able to find it.

>> Okay.

>> And Judith is to be congratulated. She has fought for and established this whole captioning pilot within ICANN, so that their online meetings are captioned and everything. And -- well done, Judith, on that.

>> And not only -- we're looking now not only in English, but French and Spanish as well. So the focus is: ICANN already does translations in different languages, as interpretation in different languages. But they don't have captioning. And the goal is, whenever you have translation, to have captioning.

>> Very good. Well, it's now -- the bells are chiming outside for 2:00, so I'm gonna say that's it. And I'm gonna end the meeting. Thanks, everybody, for coming.

>> Okay. Bye!

>> Bye.

>> Bye, everyone.